View Full Version : Question about latex?
07-17-2012, 07:36 PM
I know this might sound goofy & it may have been covered before, but I'll be damned if I can find it in any thread, but...I pretty much got every material covered in my haunt agenda (fire rated plywood, flame retardant spray for fabrics & paint additives, etc.) however the one biggy I haven't seen addressed (& we all use plenty of) is latex! (& plastics). If water cannot penetrate it than the spray fire retardant is ineffective thus unacceptable by the F/M. So how do you protect these items? Are most of these prop builders using a F/R latex or plastic? I would highly doubt it...& if they are they're needs to be documentation coming with these props for the F/M...@ least where I'm working. Some of the same props I'm buying I've seen in some of the largest theme parks so I'm assuming there must be a way to cover them...or am I missing something? My F/M is a stickler for documentation too!:mad: Any help??? Thanks.
07-18-2012, 01:31 AM
Use a fire retardant spray on them that says it is for or protects wood products, like this one
Latex is sap from a rubber tree, comes from a tree so therefore can be considered a wood product. The documentation then comes from the spray. That has eased the mind of my fire marshals in the past. I hope that helped,
07-18-2012, 06:41 AM
Thanks for that tip (another thing I did not know) sap...hmmm, I'll try running that by him & see what he thinks. I was just told (& the fire retardant spray manufacturers) claim that if you spray water on a item & it doesn't absorb than the spray will not be effective? You would think that 99% of all prop vendors are using latex in their products they would have by now incorporated a retardant into the latex. Makes sense right? Especially with the stringent fire codes today. These national theme parks are under the same guidelines & use many of the same props so somethings got to give? What about plastics (vacu-form) or rubber (tires,etc.) Has to be a way to coat it or getting around a certain percentage. Anyone?:confused:
07-18-2012, 09:34 AM
There are a wide variety of fire sheild retardant products that you either mix with water and bug spray everything down or you add 8 to 12 oz of this miracle white powder to each gallon of paint. Small quanities go for $7 to $8 per gallon and buying in bulk is the way to go, you may easily spend $200 to $300 per 1000 SF covering things.
There are industrial products and then the next level down and everyone is using the next level down. Industrial product ratings are 5 times higher and so would cost about $5,000 to spray 3,000 SF. So you need to know your parts and products so the fire marshal does't demand the industrial rating stuff.
It is still an upsell for paint manufacturers because it does tend to settle in premixed materials and must be mixed at the time of use as an additive. It is then an upsell. Residential codes have the potential to change at some point and even require sprinkler systems in homes above 4800 SF and all homes should be 4800 SF but so far this gets held back over and over due to the extra cost.
Everything has a melting point or a flash point when exposed to open flame. Plastics melt and give off fumes more than transmit flames, which is bad but it is already an acceptable time period because most items are petroleum based or already have mineral or fish oil pressure impregnated as a mold release. Flash points on oils require open flames of several minutes to reach flashpoint that is usually around 550 degrees. So you spray this water based or latex mixed sheild on every thing.
No one is treating costumes as far as I know, only props and walls. There are quite a few threads on these forums to search that have the manufacturers listed like New York Fire shield and some haunt specific suppliers.
07-18-2012, 12:07 PM
Trust me I've been researching this for a while now...and the answers are not that clear. If you read the Fire Shield (as well as other brands available) data/information sheets, it specifically states "if water does not absorb into the item you are trying to spray than the fire retardant spray will not work/ineffective. As far as I can see water does not absorb into latex, plastic or rubber, so where does that leave you? I understand you must buy different products for different materials (no one spray covers all materials)I understand these sprays are expensive & I have no problem protecting my patrons or investment but according to these sites these sprays would be ineffective? So my F/M is really pressing for concrete information..."this should work" ain't flyin' with this guy!:mad::confused: HEEELP!
07-18-2012, 02:48 PM
Is he using universal fire code, International fire code or just the regional code? No one has to fire retard their plastic garbage cans so I dont under stand the concerns. How much latex are you wanting to put into rooms?
07-18-2012, 03:03 PM
Pickle, do you have an MSDS for latex? I can get you one of those, would that be sufficient? That will help determine the fire load of the structure.
07-18-2012, 03:38 PM
No I do not have any of those. I'm not really planning on a lot of latex per say...just the normal props & animatronics (Hogzilla, Cadavers, Snakes, etc.) & this guy wants the F/R on EVERYTHING! I mean I understand the building materials but some of the props? Come on, there has to be some give & take! The patrons clothes aren't fire rated? If 95% of the build out is either non-combustible or sprayed with a F/R, I would think he would bend a little. I thought I'd use the F/R additive in a latex paint & paint the props again but they're mostly all finished already...seems ridiculous to have to re-paint every prop? This kind of shit drives me nuts...wasting a better part of two entire days messing with this crap...thought someone must have run into this by now? Maybe, like everything else in Jersey, our F/M is just over the top & un-bendable! :mad:
07-18-2012, 05:03 PM
How is he tested this? Will he come and try to burn down the haunt? Some marshals do that.
I do think that it may be a good idea for vendors to start mixing in FR with their paint as they paint their props, would definitely be helpful!
I don't think we have to spray our latex props, but I'm going on a spraying spree before inspection on everything that isn't wood, like camp netting, all the fake plants, non-latex props (skulls, foam wall pieces, etc)
Make sure you know how your marshal will "check" to see if you did FR everything.
07-18-2012, 06:10 PM
I'm with you...the vendors/manufacturers should build that into the latex itself or the paint on the latex...it would make life sooo much easier. The F/M said he'll take doc's on everything , whether it be IFR (factory designed & installed) or if sprayed...a certification. But still hasn't resolved my problem with the latex stuff! Can't believe more peeps haven't had these problems? I'll keep digging.
07-18-2012, 06:21 PM
I might make just one neat thing and put fire retardant in its paintjob just to prove its possible lol.
So buy NYFS and spray it on everything and give him the certificate? If you know it's safe and you did your job and he isn't gonna come flame test, consider yourself safe...?
07-18-2012, 09:28 PM
Paint additives work in clear coats too! Instead of repaint, add an acrylic sealer with the stuff disolved in it. But despite the directions people are just hosing things down with a bug sprayer. All of these props have some kind of garment or burlap that is the more obvious thing to catch fire or be vandalized. Under no circumstances should you have tires inside the haunt. Tires with an accelerant are the number one choice by arsons. Just scratch those off the list.
Little tid bits like things are not going to be stored there and gasolines for chainsaws, paint seconds and thinners are stored off site or away from the main building and have nothing to do with the operation of the haunt.
This stuff does work. There is a large dragon outside a well known haunt that blows fire out it's mouth and the wind whips the fire back on it and it's building that is in a pond. It requires regular re dousing but never catches fire.
The actual product is probably something like salt that when heated blows off little amounts of itself and so there is no one source for igniting a homogenious material. Eventually this effect wears off and things do catch fire. Everything is how long do you have to go in and get people and get back out if there was an involved structure fire.
But, yes You are in New Jersey. We have gotten lots of things by as the standard for this county from the stance that what they are asking for just doesn't happen anywhere reguardless of which section of the book they are looking in applies to an industrial environment. Is there plastic at your local restaurants, at the movie theater, on store shelves somewhere in a 50 mile radius from your location? Yes, danger is everwhere. The fire detection systems and sprinklers and control modules are supposed to protect if something goes into unexplained spontaneous combustion.
If you are trying to not have all those systems, the answer is clear coat. You would be better to have a sales rep for the fire sheild product do his job for you. You can smear vaseline on everything and it is tough to catch fire even with a torch and everyone that tries to grap it gets slimed and the prop stays there. There are more solutions than buying things off of shelves with only the limited instructions on the can. You have to be kinda smart and let smart people used to dealing with your area involved.
I first learned about what was possible to buy at the independent paint store and then discovered the fire shield in quantities is cheaper. So maybe you have to buy what has a sales force willing to deal with your area copy all the literature that has a guarentee and tested New Jersey specific certificate.
What is usually comes down to is limiting occupancy to the building no matter how big the place is. Suggesting there is going to be 4,000 people in there in a conga line is not what they want to hear. They want to hear at any given time no more than 50 actors and customers will need to evacuate in so many minutes per so many square foot.
You can't expect the fire marshal to sign off on things he really isn't an engineer to approve. So you get the product sales force and technical dudes to be your pro authority on the subject and there is nothing better than that. It isn't you talking to who knows who on the internet and they said this or that. We are not professional engineers or if we are are not licenced in the state of New Jersey. A professional engineer can be a technical witness on court and this is the standings they are looking for in the states that are more regulation prone.
I'm guessing that is why 12 ounces of salt costs $8.
We have heard of a lot of people that are stand up guys in their communities that never opened because they approached it all the wrong way. It is a negotiation, not a quick fix, it is the fire marshal understanding that you understand more than anything. Or the answer is you aren't opening in that county sorry. Or you don't put those stupid expensive unapproved props in there at all and just have set design and actors. Until you figure out what gel to smear on them, they might as well be a stack of tires stored in an unapproved setting. And probably the only stuff approved for New Jersey is made in New Jersey.
Some of the shows that move around the country are pretty lame and have no props at all in them just for this reason, not because they intentionally wanted to suck. So you move up with metal props, concrete props and lots of actors.
God I love all the shit that just buying stuff creates.
07-18-2012, 09:54 PM
In a large Vegas hotel I had to put a fire extinguisher within a foot of my giants. I sprayed everything with fire retardant and the items I painted I mixed it in. I left the jugs and empty bottles all over the place and the Fire Marshall said "nice" > I used to use fire retardant foam when I built props but found it an unnecessary expense. I would only personally ad retardant to latex or use fire retardant foam on request and obviously for a small fee. I have been on the build side for a few years and it has never been requested.
07-18-2012, 10:49 PM
As for latex (non costume masks) I have always used the all purpose spray on fire retardant and never had a problem. as for costumes I have never heard of anyone doing it but I can imagine it being a major skin irritant !!! I always said the most flammable thing in a haunt is the customer maybe we should hose them !!!
07-18-2012, 11:41 PM
Random thought here ~
What about this.. its a bit of work .. for latex props that are pre painted.. (which would obviously include all props, animatronics, etc)
Rough up the surface ... and break the "latex barrier" of the prop. Without destroying the integrity of the item. Either with sand paper or a Dremel tool.
Then spray the item with fire proofing.... Would that not work ???? Would the FR not get deep enough ??
Obviously .. adding a FR to the paint or latex would be the best option and less labor intensive.. but just a thought.
07-19-2012, 12:52 AM
A surprising number of costumes and items are already fire resistant or flame retardent from the manufacturers but no one is sending out their papers because, it isn't Hogan's Heros yet in most states. The whole soaking into things might apply if the stuff is being used as a fire sheild primer whereas the paint might peel off in high heat and then the primer foams up a bit, swells and becomes an insulator for the building materials. Final coating does the same thing. Maybe if it isn't in some kind of medium it would swell up and fall off. The active ingredient is Ammonia Phosphate, so it is like deluting salt and that certainly leaves a residue on things, or laundry soap certainly if not rinsed off leaves a film.
Somebody put on a mask and run through a fire.
07-19-2012, 05:30 AM
Maybe, like everything else in Jersey, our F/M is just over the top & un-bendable! :mad:
Or he's a haunt virgin, thinks his reputation is on the line, and has no idea what he is dealing with.
07-19-2012, 06:39 AM
I want to be clear on something in some of your posts you make it sound like vendors should FR their Latex and foam when they make the prop. The reason they do not is because this is odd. I have never in 25 years of haunting had a fire marshal request this, talking to my wife who is a fire marshal (just got her 20yr pin) she has never heard of this either.
It is not a flaw in the vendors that they dont fireproof, it is a flaw in the process you are being asked to go through. When in doubt, talk to the Marshal. Call him today and ask him how he would Flame retard a plastic garbage can that already exists. His answer will be the way you need to flame retard all your props.
What is being asked for is way over the top, it is akin to a food inspector asking every item a restaurant serves to be in a hot dog casing, at some point industry standard should be considered, unless the standards are unsafe. Your fire Marshal has a Lieutenant or a Chief that you can also meet with. Always ask for help as opposed to saying it is unreasonable, because people get defensive easily. There may be something they cant say unless you ask the right question.
07-19-2012, 06:57 AM
I have been doing this for over 10 years now in different parts of the country.
I have had very strict fire marshalls .
Just mix fire protectant into clear coat and spray your latex creatures.
Send your sample for your certifacate.
I have had burn tests on everything including a real tree/plant rainforest without a concern passing the burn test.
07-19-2012, 07:15 AM
I think you hit the nail on the head...he is a haunt virgin & couple years from retirement! Wants no blemishes on his record! LOL Can't blame him I guess, he's never run into this before.
I think your idea might work on things I need to get into and penetrate by "breaking the outer membrane". Hope I don't need to IMO it's a lot of additional unnecessary work. But thanks for that tip.
LMAO, I told my F/M that exact same thing! The customers ARE the most flammable, should I stand @ the tix booth & hose 'em down w/ FireShield? LOL
Maybe an additional fire extinguisher near the larger props will appease him? I'll probably do like scream f.a.d said and just spray the shit out of everything & hope for the best. Don't get me wrong...I've budgeted plenty in for fire protection, have all the other top of the line suppression stuff in order so I'm not trying to get cheap...trying to be efficient so when final inspections come, I sail thru! Don't need any last minute surprises!
I know you hate anything that has to do with buying props...but believe me, we have a great mix of store bought items & things I've personally designed & built in my fab shop. This question pertained to ALL props, not just ALL the "bought" props. I run this entire 30,000' venue by myself...I'm the general contractor, fabrication guy, designer, planner, purchaser, marketing dept., etc, (I admit I'm a little bit of a control freak & need to learn to "let go a bit") but I don't often rely on others to find solutions to problems (oh yeah, I'm the problem solver too! lol). I am no stranger to fire codes (or to the inspectors) I've had to work with both for more than 22 years. In my building biz there is a constant (& never ending) changes to the codes that I've learned to deal with & adapt to. However, my main question here was being that this F/M is obviously nervous (& him & I do get along, he knows I'm an exp. builder/GC, & he knows I don't cut corners or look for the ez way out) that what would be the best way to attack his main concern (latex props) I think he thinks of them as tires! LOL And he has been involved with some horrendous tire fires in the past! I guess the main thing that surprised me in this industry about this subject was this issue regarding F/R latex props since nearly EVERY vendor (& yes Greg, I'm going to include nearly every home haunter/prop builder;)) utilizes latex today but I can't seem to dig up concrete info on this subject...just surprised me!:eek: I guess because over the years of the building biz when a concern arose their was always somebody or something that could answer the ? with authority. And with these multi-million dollar theme parks utilizing the same latex we all know & love that surely this subject has been brought up before...did not think I'd have to dig so deep to look for clues...FOR MY F/M!!! Well I guess since there seems to be no 100% cure I'll move all my stock options over to FIRESHIELD before I purchase a tractor trailer load of this shit! LMAO!
PS: Be forewarned, any of you who make it to Jersey (near Atlantic City) and stop by my haunt...you ARE getting heavily hosed down with F/R upon entering the building!;)
Thanks to all that replied for your time & help...I do appreciate your efforts!:)
07-19-2012, 07:43 AM
Hey Allen & Darkside,
Sorry I just missed your post...I was posting myself before going out into my "welding Dungeon"!
No, didn't mean to insinuate that there was a "flaw" with the manufacturers...just thought that others must be having these problems (but it sure doesn't sound like it) so even if the product cost us more in the end it would be money well spent.
Congrats to your wife making it 20 years (I know how difficult it is to make it 20 yrs. doing anything nowadays) I appreciate you looking into this further for me and I know how to "delicately" ask to talk to someone "higher" if need be (and please know that isn't meant to sound cocky...trust me) I've been doing the "dance" with building officials my entire life (holy crap...that long?). We're talking about a F/M who shut down his towns OWN volunteer haunt two years ago because of "infractions"? (which who knows may have been the right call) Point being, he is nervous about this type of venue because it isn't just "run of the mill" everyday stuff to him...he's got to research, look up codes, give it some thought, etc. So I guess when he made the blanket statement "EVERYTHING NEEDS F/R DOCUMENTATION" , "EVERYTHING THAT'S INSIDE THAT BUILDING"! he obviously is covering his butt which is fine but there has to be, as you said, a point that crosses industry standards. His main concern is that everything inside has a class "A" /low smoke rating...I just can't see (nor can he) how latex, with or without the F/R spray will ever meet this criteria. So, me being me, thought that others have had this same problem or @ least know what the acceptable standards are in this industry, (hence popping the question on the forum) but it doesn't seem anyone has run up against this like me (gotta luv Jersey). I guess I'm stuck just spraying EVERYTHING & hope for the best...does not appear there are too many alternatives for me. But I will "grill" him a little more tomorrow (or go over his head if I'm not liking what I'm hearing). And here I thought the fire suppression system was going to be a big pain in the ass...that was cake compared to this nonsense!
Thanks for your reply as well. I think that is my only real choice here. But can't the spray go on the prop directly without mixing it in varnish? I was told varnish is more brittle & may crack if moved too much (animatronics). Just wondering? Thanks.
PS: BTW Allen, the F/M told me to use steel drums for the trash cans! LMAO
07-19-2012, 10:02 AM
Good Point...yes varnish does crack on latex. I use an clear automotive product that is flexible (used on the plastic bumpers of cars) and use it just on my latex props. Never had anything crack . All you need is a nice thin coat..... not thick like varnish.
1st year at a location is the hardest. Last year I asked the marshall a question I do not remember now what it was...but his response blew my mind. His answer was Charlie, Im not sure....you are more of an expert at this then me!
Also, I have a couple good frends that run Pro Haunts in NJ, I will ask them and get back.
Your doing great ....just keep going you will get past this.....
07-19-2012, 04:49 PM
Thanks for replying...I'm going to try that...got a good friend that owns several body shops so I'll see what he recommends. Yeah I've been involved with numerous businesses over the years & the first year is a huge learning curve for sure. I just seem to run into some doosies! :lol: Whatever...I'll get thru it but thanks for the info & your reply.
07-19-2012, 10:53 PM
These chemicals are not forever once installed and may need to be recoated once a year or every other year. The higher earning haunts have no problem doing major remodels as this stuff is going to have to be done anyhow and by square footage is a decent percentage added to the structures costs. Even if prop builders began mixing this goodness into raw materials, it would only have a certain shelf life and would likely have to be hosed down on location anyhow.
Trust me I know what you are going through. I'm from Pennsylvania, a state that has every law every written and some burocracy to enforce it. When I got to Texas because a business we started needed help, I wandered around Texas for about 2 years having a reverse heart attack about every single day of life not fighting or not fighting some rule or having to pay some fee or making an extra $20,000 a year just to breathe. I would never go back, we did boiler retrofits and historic landmark restorations, building inspections and my little career saving the world all at the same time.
Even in the states where there is not a fire marshal just learning the ropes at a later age, the haunters and prop builders themselves are pretty much self governing and indeed want to provide what ever can be reasonably done. I had all the safety stuff and no one came, or cared. I still had the peice of mind nothing was going to happen. In the end it was my responcibility.
There is a bigger shitty picture here and it is some company makes products then gets laws passed that require these products and active ingrediants be consumed. Meanwhile you know how you get rid of fire treated lumber? You burn it. And at the exact same time there are grandmas lobbying not to have fire retardent in childrens clothes because it is toxic and far out weighs being exposed to flames in actual incident percentages.
I did a quick look yesterday before I said anything and discovered countless costumes, even haunt vendors had images of their wares that included the word fire resistant materials. SO it is a real thing but it might be more like the future as opposed to what is being done as a standard now.
Every haunt in one way shape or form has been through this teaching people that are in some kind of routine new things. My first indoor haunt was a fire hall and I had to explain that I had walls and black plastic is bad to veteran fire fighters that I totally respected what the do for the community in a big way, even had two people very active in our haunt die fighting a fire a month before our season was to begin. We didn't open that year out of respect for the situation.
Still, fire retardant and resistant chemicals are not stable nor permanent. The higher profile haunts and vendors are not on these forums. And it may or may not be funny but, yet another reason everyone is hard to get ahold of. Your gonna give everyone a heart attack. But it may be more of the same, what has gotten everyone by so far. As of yet there are no true products that fit this bill and last with a one time fixes everything. It isn't the future yet. No flying cars or jet packs for everyone so they can just go somewhere at will.
Even teddy bear stuffing technically is filed in country and only the skins are shipped here flat in containers because the filler fire retardant has a shelf life and a quality that has to be assured. For now vendors are coating fabrics on the larger props but, the rest is up to the end user. Still no one is sending Spec sheets of materials liabilities with these products.
I learned quite a bit letting the haunt be used as a maze to do fire rescue drills like a crazy house version of trying to crawl with all the equipment and hoses and back out with a victim that was supposed to be unconcious bringing all the stuff back out. Odd furniture and crap was thrown in and the thing was a triangular maze anyhow and they were blind folded with full gear on. How long things really take becomes obvious and part of what the fire marshal is doing is not being pompus or being a figure head but, not putting people into those kind of situations at all if they can avoid it.
Yet the other difference in locations across the country is also how quickly there might be a return on investment and so making things is because there is never going to be a go shopping budget and it is a side line income to be able to make and sell things. There just isn't the go ahead and pay 3 times what it would cost to make one because we have to do it now philosophy. It isn't my own personal mental condition, it is relative to the income these things will ever bring.
In the real world if there is 30,000 SF and only one item that is a cubic foot is in the middle on fire, everything else had been hosed down with fire retardant, real fire guys would rather pee on it than go get all the equipment. It's actually funny. I'm not being flippant about the situation at all. There is a reality to all of this and an attitude that meets these realities. Even theme parks started out small and there was just a few acres and the town officials grew with the size of the attraction and they worked this way and that way and created all of these problems and unsurmountable information.
So the manufacturers of fire retardants have sales forces and are partially to blame for all the propaganda and fears so make them spend money to serve you. It isn't the city or county that needs to do things because you paid taxes a couple years ago. Actually manufacturing something like a haunted house bends all the traditions and if you are going big right out of the box, you have bigger problems than someone that got a small deal oriented and approved and grew over time and negotiated the growth of all these safety items as they could afford.
So I'm saying the real world is crazy. If there is a fire, whip it out and pee on it, if you are up against city hall and zoning you need licensed engineers to support your opinions, basically telling them, or informing them that no such miracle chemical has been discovered yet, when it is, they will be the first to know but for now, this is the overall design of the facility with all the considerations for the standards of today. By square footage, these props might occupy 1% of the square footage or your design will discuss that actual percentage.
It is only these people's job to review what can be obtained, not to become rocket scientists. None of us has a 12.5 million dollar testing facility anymore. So you have to in some cases submit the philosophy of your design as reviewed by engineers. There is all kinds of places in Princeton and Trenton that would love to make a press release that they are forwarding the research into anything rather than applying for jobs at Walmart. I can't remember if Cherry Hill is New Jersey or not. All I can say if there are all kinds of minds out your way. You can't do all this shit yourself. In the bigger picture the more people you get involved for an authorized opinion it is like free advertising of your event.
Your skill set and what you describe what you have done is exactly who I am. I had an 8 year stint of being in testing facilities with DOE, OSHA, DOD, Burea of mines and Aerospace dudes all in one place. It was all about safety and fires and gasses and the earth crushing you or falling out from under you and smushing things 10,000 times with 3 million pounds of force or making things explode. Despite how much has been spent to figure out all these safety issues there is simply a limit to what can be formulated or cost effectively be provided. There are heavy limitations to fields of research and what is really a bunch of propaganda. It's like follow the money, who says. I'm saying this experience in my life was rare for anyone to be able to do and shaped some opinions in my thinking, things aren't really much better than what they came up with 50 years ago in an international conference. Only now you can text message people about cats. They haven't really changed the laws of physics just yet.
Because of your location in New Jersey I would suggest you DO NOT involve anyone that claims to be a haunt consultant as their mind bending line of logic will just piss everyone off and it won't happen for you. It is very far from being a Jedi mind trick. You have to find the professions in your state to be involved that everyone is comfortable with that might actually be informative on an industrial level that can give real hand ice breaking antacdotes like we just pee on things, you are worrying too much.
07-20-2012, 09:49 AM
I'm with you 110% Oh, BTW Cherry Hill is still in New Jersey. LOL What you said about the props being about 1% of the total haunt is nearly EXACTLY what I said to the F/M. And being 50 yrs. old, I too have had a vast overall life experience to date (which I thank God for letting me be well rounded) and know 80% of the shit tossed around out there is just that...propaganda! There's another thing...I just noticed you can't spell propaganda without "prop"! HMMM;) I just know that there is usually "give & take" with building/fire officials...been mostly giving the last 20 something years. I haven't had a lot of time to research the companies offering F/R props yet but am thankful you have @ least I know there are a few out there. I will try & research that a bit more. I am just trying to nip this in the bud early as I don't need him pulling rank in the 12th hour, that's all. I am all for safety...I have numerous close friends as firefighters & they agree with what your saying...but I got to get past the one roadblock. We fully intend to change things up every year & have no problem spending the money on the F/R sprays...IF he would just accept them for what they are. I have another mtg. with him next week & I am armed with much more info. (thanks in part to this forum I might add) :) so hopefully he'll see I am doing EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to make him feel "comfortable"! And trust me...NOT trying to give anyone a heart attack out there...this racket is stressful 'nuff without adding fuel to the fire! (no pun intended) ;) But thanks to everyone who replied & chimed in...I do appreciate it!
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