Prop Escrow

[Inn Reaper]

After this season I am fed up with prop builders who want 40% down and shut there phones off when there ship date passes. This is getting way out of hand. This is just not small guys but big players too. Scarefactory is one of the worst. Because of this a prop escrow business like paypal could be used. Hell why dont these people use paypal. When someone has my money and says they will ship in 6 weeks they need to do it. I had shit showing up 2 weeks after I was open and the vendor had $17,000 of my money. Really pissed me off is they called the day before they shipped and said you need the balance so they could ship. I sent it that day and it a week to get them on the phone after the product didnt show up. Maybe we start a rating service or something. Any suggestions.

[Todd Shumansky]

I feel exactly the same way you do. I've had plenty of stress over the years waiting for items to arrive in time for the season. Just a bit of info I'd like to pass on... the 2007 season is coming in 9 or 10 months. Seems simple enough that manufacturers should start gearing up for next year right now. It would be an amazing thing to be able to pick up the phone and order a product thats in stock and ready to go. I wonder how much business goes away because of lack of inventory and poor customer service? I'm starting early on the ordering process this year. Hopefully we can get our stuff before the TW rush and take advantage of off-season discounts from manufacturers.

[SomeThingInTheIce]

I think what happens is that on the bigger props they will make like one maybe two. Then they wait for orders and use some of the money to buy the stuff they need to build your prop. This is no way to run things because they will get behind and then someone will lose out. (and it will not be them) I think if your going to sell props you need to have a good inventory and ship it out when you get paid. I hear bad things all the time about vendors but I do know that there are good ones out there too. I like your idea of a rating service.

[Chris]

Every year it's the same story, isn't it. Last year, after a slew of horror stories posted here, I suggested adding another board here so that Haunters could share their good and bad stories and allow the merchants to respond (if they dare/choose). This suggestion was disregarded at the time, but it is still an idea I support. The BEST way to promote good service is to allow people to post about the bad service they recieve.

But then, I suppose it really depends what Larry wants this forum to be. If it is a forum for all professional haunters to exchange information, then a feedback forum like I suggested would be a great addition. I have seen this done in other industries with great results.

A feedback forum is a good thing. It's good for the industry and it's good for struggling haunt owners. The only person it might not be good for is Larry as it might cut into his ad dollars.

[Xeverity]

OMFG - I thought it was just me!! :shock: Being from the UK it is 10 times worse because it can take months to come by boat and then sit in a customs warehouse for god knows how long.

I provide exact instructions for shipping - how to describe the item etc. and still crap happens. But I am an expert at dealing with crap now having been through all the scenarios!

I did tell a seller not to include the powered dye as it would cause problems - he ignored my advice and the customs guys got a nasty surprise when they opened it. Shipping powder is not a good idea. Unless it has special documentation.

I have developed a nasty streak to avoid getting ripped off. International Fraud usually does the trick because is an actual avenue we can take. Over here it is very serious. The Birtish are nuts on this! 8) However when communication breaks down then it does make it hard and we actually have to file fraud charges and pursue a claim as well through insurance.

The problem for me is that part of what I do is providing good for other people, not just ourselves! So it is often other people's money I have. We are honest with our customers and tell them up front. They are paying us for the hassle as well the goods.

This is something I would like to expand and be able to offer people in the US a UK branch of their business. Shipping is a real hassle and I have good shipping connections. Plus I can get to the ports and Gatwick easily as well as provide storage, marketing and web-selling.

Up until two years ago none of the shops had anything - at all! Zip, zero, zilch!! Now there are few bits (mostly crap) but I have to import everything - even the most basic components!! Most of the big stuff we make ourselves or partially make and then add the components or sometimes the severed heads etc.

Hell - I've imported latex molds, poured plaster, resign, carved my own tombstones, painted latex blanks etc. etc.

The problem is the prop makers. The products might be great and would certainly sell well but their unreliability and unprofessionalism is infuriating!!

Being in the middle and having a jerk to deal with is crap. The PayPal escrow only works on small items (coming by courier or express) because the cut-off is 60 days for intial filing and then another 30 for resolution!

I had a cretian partially ship an order as well as it being not being what I ordered and being faulty, but because our intially filing of the claim was 'non receipt' all they did was produce the shipping receipt and PayPal found favour with them.

Were were out £2,000. However they did pay up eventually after some threatening legal action.

I think a name them and shame them approach would be best. Perhaps a listing with a seller rating? If Haunts can be rated then why not prop makers?

I like to think I am pretty careful about who I order from and I check them out to make sure I know who owns the company, their address, phone number, whether they are properly registered, etc. etc.

But crap still happens. Sad really. Because one guy did great work and I would love to use him again and buy a whole crate load of his stuff to sell here but he is too flakey.

I made a mistake once with some 'tombstone outfit' run by a woman named Vanessa in Florida. They had really good ones and not too 'mass manufactured'. Perfect for us and resale potential on the smaller ones. I ordered samples first and they were great - 5 foot tall grim reaper, 6 foot tall angel and some small ones. It was the plaster detailing that made them. I then placed a big order and then nothing..........dead air....... then the website went down.... and I read on blogs that they swindled a lot of people...

Sorry for the rant but this makes me so mad!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

If anyone knows of honest prop makers who would like help selling in the UK/Europe market PM me.

[haunter112]

The only problem I see with using THIS forum as a place to air complaints about prop suppliers is the fact that this forum is sponsored by those very same companies.

Scroll to the top or bottom of this page and 9 times out of 10 you're gonna find a banner ad for a prop company. Those people pay good money to advertise here. That's money that helps keep this forum up and running.

Why should Larry allow this forum to turn into a place that is openly-hostile to the very companies that sponsor it?

How long would the HAUNTWORLD forum last without the financial support of those prop companies?

I agree that someone should start a no-ads, non-biased website where people would be free to openly review prop companies, haunts, etc.

This forum just isn't it.

[Jim Warfield]

So if a haunt took admission money then turned off the lights and locked the doors...nobody should complain or say anything?
"Just quietly walk away..please."
Anybody ever tried this? Does it work pretty good?
Sure.
Anybody ever have hired help who was really trying to be "Hired Helpless"?
Findind a dark corner to hide in and remain quietly hidden til it's paycheck time? Kind of frustrating........
When currentcy changes hands there are reasonable expectations to be met.

I have sold tickets, then turned off all my outside lights and put my voice outside saying, "Sorry, we're closed!" Lots of FUN!
Kinda sets the mood, let's them know I'm in charge! hahahaah!

So do most of the prop-builder problems come from the unpredictability of demand for a new product?
I like to think we are all doing the best that we can the majority of the time, whether a prop -builder or a haunt owner.
These business are more difficult than many realise.

[Xeverity]

Ok how about praising the good guys!!

The flip side is that there are honest and good suppliers out there who are getting passed over because of others.

The majority I beleive are good but the bad ones hurt them all. :D

The 'complained about supplier' also may have just been experiencing a short-term problem and could use it to their advantage to resolve it and let people know that its fixed.
:idea:

service, quality, originality, price, - I assume that even a supplier who might not have the best rep for service (as long as they are not a complete theif) could at least get recognition in one area! :shock:

I don't believe that anyone would want to do bad business when they have a good product. The sad thing is the person who I won't name had what looked like really great products. I wouldn't have cared if he said he was having problems and gave me options. I am a reasonable person. I know crap happens. What I value more than anything is a long-term bigger picture relationship.

Not a one off smash and grab - take the money and run.

It is the same with my customers - I want then to tell their friends and keep coming back and then they tell two people and so on....

I don't take chances anymore. This is my primary reason for thinking of going to Transworld to see venders in person because I have cut down buying and restricted who I buy from to a very short list. Mostly from Germany this year. This also means I am probably missing out on some really good stuff.

The suppliers could really benefit from this. Before I bought a new sound-system I read the reveiws and then made my choice.

These guys would benefit and so would any other larger ones who do business with transparency.

The supplier I mentioned (tombstones) is not one of the ad sponsers - they no longer operate -they just made some great prototypes and then took people's money for 8 months before they shut their doors for good.

I would much rather have a supplier say "Sorry we can't do your order until xxxx because we are fully booked". I had one company offer me a 10% discount for just that reason - "we can't do for this year but if you buy now for next year.....".

Now a supplier like that I love. Maybe cause I get everything shipped in but I want to know the lead time.

No one has a perfect business. Just looking for honesty!

[wipp]

so you guys think thats bad?im still waiting on a prop i ordered from haunted classified.paid for in august.this fool emails me everyday askin did you send the money yet over n over then after he cashes check he turns into a ghost.i still cant get a response from the company.i guess he thinks if he hides long enough i will forget about my thousands of dollars

[jason]

so how does one go about avoiding/staying on top of the problems that you guys speak of?

[SomeThingInTheIce]

so how does one go about avoiding/staying on top of the problems that you guys speak of?
Cash and Carry, I have never bought a large prop, just the small stuff. I have never had a problem with any vendor on the small stuff. When the time comes to get some larger props, it will be cash and carry. Head to the trade shows buy it and load it up and take it home.

[Jim Warfield]

Bring a couple extra sled dogs incase the item is real heavy.

[Xeverity]

Have you read the hand luggage restrictions for getting stuff on an airplane?

I've started doing 'legal contracts' and restrict who I do business with. When I pay up - it is almost double because I also get stung for massive shipping charges and tend to buy in quantity.

Sadly it also means I can't offer my clients or myself some of the really
good stuff because it is too risky.

[ClusterOne]

I know a rating/review system has been talked about before, but as far as I can see there doesn't seem to be anything out there.

I understand that doing it here would make it tricky with Larry and the advertisers, so maybe if there was a separate site or forum away from hauntworld.

Ebay has its positive/negative ratings, download.com has its star system, rottentomato has the fresh/rotten system, we should be able to come up with something that will work.

Being fairly new to the world of high end haunt merchandise, I personally would love a place like that.

[Greg Chrise]

This happening over and over should spell opportunity to some vendors. Like the cash and carry advice, the product you buy is already made and in stock, not we'll make you one if your check clears. As long as buyers put up with the risk there will be abuse. There is abuse in any industry like roofers getting a deposit for materials and then taking off to the next town and repeating this over and over.

I have bought things said to be in stock and come to find out it is not really yet. So easy to make a prototype that took 200 hours and figure repros can be done in 20 hours, it isn't the same attention to detail.

Unfortunately any good restaurant chef goes to the market at 5 AM and hand picks what he will be cooking at 5PM. A good carpenter goes and picks out the wood. A good buyer should do the same or expect to be disappointed with a delivery. Real quality must be nurtured and demands kept with in reason and the sale price would stay up. As long as customers are willing to accept knock offs and make desposits all the griping in the world will not solve the problem infact it will ready the would be start up to prepare for an exit strategy and taking everyone's money when they go.

I know if I ever get to the point of buying things that cost thousands of dollars, I will take my truck thousands of miles to get it myself, even scout out the place to begin with or not take the risk. Just knowing how things are handled in shipping justifies this to me. If I was going to sell something I would expect to deliver it as well to make sure I get my money. What I would sell would be in front of me describeable as to it's condition and quality or I would not sell it. Just the situation of selling something not in hand is a flim flam, promising an intangeble. What are the odds the end buyer will be happy if he has been promised something specific that does not exist?

Perhaps some vendors have earned the right to operate this way but on the same token, they already know who their good customers are as well. Just buying a space at a convention does not mean they are well backed, it is the nature of a trade shows intended false credability. To create an opportunity. If the buyer does not know, they may learn the hard way. Or be pleasantly surprised.

If you are dealing with or expecting high quality a certain amount of investment beyond paying for something is required. If you want to deal in mass produced crap, the price should be lower and possible losses are relative to that lower price. If the buyer wants low prices and are disappointed when the product isn't Hollywood one of a kind delivered overnight, they are a bad customer and having a forum for bad customers does what? Waste bandwidth.

If you are importing, unfortunately you need a trusted man where the products are to pick and ship (or do the leg work yourself not in the vitual world) or what you conside a convienence that is going to make you rich will not unless you are volume volume volume.

I guess the summation is maybe there is a problem with the customers? The would be vendors have made the mistake of not pre qualifying their customers, not having the item already made and a warning sign is the would be vendor getting crappy when buying. A bad customer will push on beyond these warning signs, make a deposit and hope and bitch until something is delivered. Crappy customers make new vendors just make what ever to get them to go away. Ultimately they don't end up liking the business they have begun.

The new customers are also trying to be somebody maybe they aren't and promising to make payment but, have over extended themselves. To combat this things like Transworld making sure every Buyer had a history of buying $5,000 per year in products was to help vendors. The industry rebelled and it was discovered few if anyone does this volume of business or wants to or ever expects to as far as haunted house props go.

I would expect every level of prop has its buyer. A $12,000 prop might sell 3 or 5 per year (I don't really know) and these can properly be made in so many months but, most are wanting at most 40 clown masks at $20 each and is there a discount? I'll bet you have never heard a vendor of clown masks say we aren't accepting anymore orders or looking to take on any more customers.

I'll venture a guess that if this is a 300 million dollar market this haunted house thing and there are 3,000 to 5,000 events out there, that could mean each house averages 60,000 to 100,000 in ticket sales tops right now per year. Actual prop purchases are not necessarily every year but probably average maybe $3,000 per event tops among a wide variety of products from masks costumes lighting special effects and latex things.

The other commonality seems to be that the supposed bad vendor that no one else has ever heard of has taken thousands of someone's money when by statistics it might be a hundred or so. As a buyer not forced to have minimum purchases, if you are infact spending thousands, spend it divided among many vendors rather than one and some higher percentage of goods will reach a satisfactory conclusion. Or be prepared to do the leg work to get your prized possesion.

No amount of talk will solve these deficient aspects of a realtively low level industry. Bad unqualified customers make even good vendors look bad if given the power to do so.

[Jim Warfield]

So, the problem somewhat is with the "Cuss Tumor"?
See how the word gives away the problem maker?
Is it a brain tumor? Probably.
I usually suffer from wallet tumors but cussing a piece of leather doesn't accomplish much, does it?
I was alway amazed when there would be two cuss tumors standing there, each with a dollar in their hand and one of them would seem to think that the dollar in their hand was somehow worth more than the dollar the other guy was holding?
You should be highly honored to accept their money first and since it is their money not expect anything beyond that 100 pennys .
Their money is so special.
Maybe nobody knows what I mean? Maybe it was just a small-town, elderly person concept, but it really happened many times.
Very strange.

[Greg Chrise]

Yes and be sure to pull off in the middle of a $4,000 job to go do a few $40 jobs. Thus sabotaging ever getting the big one done in a timely fashion.

Hey, it's past our bed times!

[Jim Warfield]

There You Go! Zackly Wut Eye Mean!
"Passed my bedtime? I just woke up!

[Greg Chrise]

Not again? If you keep doing that, you will be mistaken for a prop!

[Greg Chrise]

It's okay if we turned this into a personal conversation, no one ever reads page two.

[SSP]

Aren't there laws to prevent such horrible business transactions from occuring? Reporting it to the something...or-other...who does something to uphold something...uh, it's a legal thing.... Sorry that didn't make sense, it's late.

Past your bed times? HA! Just a regular college night for me here. :twisted:

[Chris]

The only problem I see with using THIS forum as a place to air complaints about prop suppliers is the fact that this forum is sponsored by those very same companies.

Scroll to the top or bottom of this page and 9 times out of 10 you're gonna find a banner ad for a prop company. Those people pay good money to advertise here. That's money that helps keep this forum up and running.


Are you saying that there are NO good and reliable prop suppliers? That seems a bit hard to believe and certainly doesn't mirror my experiences.


Why should Larry allow this forum to turn into a place that is openly-hostile to the very companies that sponsor it?

Because by failing to do so he makes it "hostile" (or less useful) to the people it actually exists for. Haunters.


How long would the HAUNTWORLD forum last without the financial support of those prop companies?

I agree that someone should start a no-ads, non-biased website where people would be free to openly review prop companies, haunts, etc.

This forum just isn't it.

People openly review companies here and now. Somehow, despite this, the forum exists and advertisers aren't yanking their ads -- probably because those ads are seen by lots of people. My suggestion is to create a new board for this customer feedback so that both the good and bad feedback remains. As I have said, other industries do it. Just one example would be bowling, where several of the biggest bowling websites offer boards for people to post their experiences with online bowling ball sellers. Amazingly, most of the reviews are good, while the bad reviews allow customers the information to decide for themselves. Further, such a forum allows online suppliers the opportunity to respond directly and publicly -- also a good thing.

What you are suggesting is that the "needs" of these companies, their need to sell product, takes precedence over the needs of the very people this website claims to exist for. Haunters. Ironically, this is a very similar attitude to that held by haunt suppliers themselves.

[Raycliff Manor]

Something I've done in the past is post a question to the effect of,

"I'm looking into purchasing a product from XXX company. Does anyone have any experience with this company and would you be interested in sharing feedback? If so, please feel free to PM or email me."

Of course, if I receive a PM or email with positive feedback on a company, I encourage the person sending me the info to post a reply on the forum for the benefit of the company providing excellent service and for the forum members. :wink: If I receive negative feedback on a company, I thank the person providing the info and decide how the feedback will affect my potential purchase from the company in question. Usually people who have had positive experiences with businesses catering to the haunted attraction industry are eager to share their experience and praise. :wink:

Kel

[Chris]

Something I've done in the past is post a question to the effect of,

"I'm looking into purchasing a product from XXX company. Does anyone have any experience with this company and would you be interested in sharing feedback? If so, please feel free to PM or email me."

Of course, if I receive a PM or email with positive feedback on a company, I encourage the person sending me the info to post a reply on the forum for the benefit of the company providing excellent service and for the forum members. :wink: If I receive negative feedback on a company, I thank the person providing the info and decide how the feedback will affect my potential purchase from the company in question. Usually people who have had positive experiences with businesses catering to the haunted attraction industry are eager to share their experience and praise. :wink:

Kel

That's a great suggestion, but it does miss the boat in some respects --

1. It offers little incentive for the poor performers to improve. Why should they bother, and are they even aware of the reputation they are gaining? Better, what reputation (good or bad) have they aquired if no one knows? The answer is none at all.

2. It offers no opportunity for the company to respond to good and bad reports or to correct problems, or even outright lies. Without that feedback there is no way to verify the validity or frequency of complaints.

3. It relies on the person with the bad (or good experiences) to actually SEE the request and still care enough to respond -- perhaps months later.

Honestly, I am a bit stunned that anyone would object to this. Many here are business owners or managers. Who among us is opposed to our customers sharing their experiences? I certainly am not. I want visitors to tell everyone they know all about their experiences. Even if they did have a bad experience, I damn sure want to hear about it -- even publicly, for a public airing of my errors also allows me to demonstrate how efficiently and effectively I address those complaints.

Yet somehow we feel that haunt suppliers are different, and that they wouldn't welcome such customer feedback. That alone should say something about the state of the supply side of the industry. Is it really so bad that if customers were allowed to post their experiences the industry would falter? I highly doubt it. Instead, what would happen is that the cream would rise to the top while the poor performers either fix their issues or flounder.

[PumpkinHead]

That's a great suggestion, but it does miss the boat in some respects --

1. It offers little incentive for the poor performers to improve. Why should they bother, and are they even aware of the reputation they are gaining? Better, what reputation (good or bad) have they aquired if no one knows? The answer is none at all.


Good point Chris,
Let's look back to the type of the Puritans to rehash some of their better ideas on public humiliation as a good deterent of unwanted practices:

I am all for throwing bad business in the stocks for all to see! Either that or we could sew a Hawthornian Scarlet Letter onto their owners shirts so at the tradeshows we can know who to avoid!

Just some ideas ;)
PH

[haunter112]

The only problem I see with using THIS forum as a place to air complaints about prop suppliers is the fact that this forum is sponsored by those very same companies.

Scroll to the top or bottom of this page and 9 times out of 10 you're gonna find a banner ad for a prop company. Those people pay good money to advertise here. That's money that helps keep this forum up and running.


Are you saying that there are NO good and reliable prop suppliers? That seems a bit hard to believe and certainly doesn't mirror my experiences.


Why should Larry allow this forum to turn into a place that is openly-hostile to the very companies that sponsor it?

Because by failing to do so he makes it "hostile" (or less useful) to the people it actually exists for. Haunters.


How long would the HAUNTWORLD forum last without the financial support of those prop companies?

I agree that someone should start a no-ads, non-biased website where people would be free to openly review prop companies, haunts, etc.

This forum just isn't it.

People openly review companies here and now. Somehow, despite this, the forum exists and advertisers aren't yanking their ads -- probably because those ads are seen by lots of people. My suggestion is to create a new board for this customer feedback so that both the good and bad feedback remains. As I have said, other industries do it. Just one example would be bowling, where several of the biggest bowling websites offer boards for people to post their experiences with online bowling ball sellers. Amazingly, most of the reviews are good, while the bad reviews allow customers the information to decide for themselves. Further, such a forum allows online suppliers the opportunity to respond directly and publicly -- also a good thing.

What you are suggesting is that the "needs" of these companies, their need to sell product, takes precedence over the needs of the very people this website claims to exist for. Haunters. Ironically, this is a very similar attitude to that held by haunt suppliers themselves.

Yeah... it's too bad these forums are on a PRIVATELY-OWNED, COMMERCIAL website, huh?

[Chris]

That's a great suggestion, but it does miss the boat in some respects --

1. It offers little incentive for the poor performers to improve. Why should they bother, and are they even aware of the reputation they are gaining? Better, what reputation (good or bad) have they aquired if no one knows? The answer is none at all.


Good point Chris,
Let's look back to the type of the Puritans to rehash some of their better ideas on public humiliation as a good deterent of unwanted practices:

I am all for throwing bad business in the stocks for all to see! Either that or we could sew a Hawthornian Scarlet Letter onto their owners shirts so at the tradeshows we can know who to avoid!

Just some ideas ;)
PH

Heh-heh.

I guess you guys are right. Haunt equipment suppliers have the right to give poor service. They are entitled to take peoples money and then not deliver. They deserve that money a whole lot more than their customers do. The worst thing we could do would be to allow their potential customers to actually know ahead of time what they were getting themselves in to.

Or maybe not.

What I find amusing, again, is the assumption that these reviews will be negative. What does that say about this industry?

The last time I bought anything haunt related online it was from Larry at FX Faces. As ALWAYS, his service was perfect, his product was perfect, his prices a bargain, it was delivered on time, and he answered every question I had. My experiences with him have always been a pleasure. The same cannot be said for his competetors -- but that was knowlege I had to buy with my own money.

[Chris]

Yeah... it's too bad these forums are on a PRIVATELY-OWNED, COMMERCIAL website, huh?

Why is this relevant? Are you saying that this website is actually owned by these same haunt suppliers?

[Jim Warfield]

We all make mistakes , we all have made errors in judgement but the biggest common problem facing mankind in his dealings with others (in my opinion) is making verbal promises that your "back" can't deliver.
This also means making estimates of prices that cannot be met because someone just isn't very good at telling time or adding numbers.
I spent 15 of my adult years in such a work situation where I always had to take the loss, work for nothing or almost nothing(just to stay busy) and guess what? After 15 years of working like a slave, living like a monk in an abbey, I had effectively lost my house, my wife and my kids, small price to pay for being all the customers "best boy", right?
WRONG!
But I always did what I said I was going to do as far as appearing for the job and doing the work, now that thing concerning pay?.......
I had my pride in keeping my word and pride in the quality of the work I did, but these things do not (directly ) pay the bills, money does.
Too many people flap their gums, take as much money as they can for the smallest amount of work they can get away with, this works for the CEO's of huge companys but not very well for the rest of us.
There. Enough of my personal drama and tragedy for this episode.

[PumpkinHead]

That's a great suggestion, but it does miss the boat in some respects --

1. It offers little incentive for the poor performers to improve. Why should they bother, and are they even aware of the reputation they are gaining? Better, what reputation (good or bad) have they aquired if no one knows? The answer is none at all.


Good point Chris,
Let's look back to the type of the Puritans to rehash some of their better ideas on public humiliation as a good deterent of unwanted practices:

I am all for throwing bad business in the stocks for all to see! Either that or we could sew a Hawthornian Scarlet Letter onto their owners shirts so at the tradeshows we can know who to avoid!

Just some ideas ;)
PH

Heh-heh.

I guess you guys are right. Haunt equipment suppliers have the right to give poor service. They are entitled to take peoples money and then not deliver. They deserve that money a whole lot more than their customers do. The worst thing we could do would be to allow their potential customers to actually know ahead of time what they were getting themselves in to.

Or maybe not.



Chris,
Sorry if my sarcasm made you think I was against your idea. I am all for exposing the companies who are trying to rip off my haunting friends. I think we NEED a forum or a portion of a forum for this purpose only. Maybe a simple thread such as "GREAT COMPANIES" and another thread for companies to stay away from. Of course there would have to be scrict monitoring of the threads because you never know when someone from a competitors company might want to discredit an opponent. I think that a forum like this would be a valuable tool for the industry ,but I am not sure that this forum would be the best place to house it.
Thanks,
PH

[haunter112]

Yeah... it's too bad these forums are on a PRIVATELY-OWNED, COMMERCIAL website, huh?
Are you saying that this website is actually owned by these same haunt suppliers?

Nope.

I just think you are under the impression this forum is some kind of grassroots network created for haunters, by haunters, etc.

This isn't a democracy... it's a benelovent monarchy.

One of the reasons a lot of people get confused about this is because Larry takes a very hands-off approach to managing this forum. He very seldomly deletes a post or bans anyone other than spammers.

He pretty much gives us the run of the place.

It's can be quite easy to forget that this is a PRIVATELY-OWNED forum on a COMMERCIAL website.

WE ARE ONLY GUESTS HERE!

We can whine.... we can complain... but in the end, it's Larry's decision.

If you don't like how this place is run... start your own forum.

Hell... I'll sign up as your first member and we can debate this some more.

[Joedog]

Just an outside question sorta about this subject.

When you make these purchases do they say "we will ship it on xx/xx/xxxx" leading you to believe it is sitting on a shelf or do they tell you upfront you are preordering and the deposit is a material fee an the balance is construction and labor costs.

If that is the fact maybe thses comoanies need to look into Eli Whitney's plan of interchangeable parts to mass produce their new widget everyone will want in their haunt instead of each unit being a "one-off" and just slightly different and a pian to repair if failure occurs.

Now for a question of my own.

Does anyone ever see a cool new item at one of the shows and say
"PSSHHT, I can build one of those" and do it?

[Chris]

Chris,
Sorry if my sarcasm made you think I was against your idea. I am all for exposing the companies who are trying to rip off my haunting friends. I think we NEED a forum or a portion of a forum for this purpose only. Maybe a simple thread such as "GREAT COMPANIES" and another thread for companies to stay away from. Of course there would have to be scrict monitoring of the threads because you never know when someone from a competitors company might want to discredit an opponent. I think that a forum like this would be a valuable tool for the industry ,but I am not sure that this forum would be the best place to house it.
Thanks,
PH

Then we are in complete agreement. I appologize for the sarcastic nature of my response and plead frustration as this thread is a duplicate of one from last year. How many struggling haunt owners have to come here with real-life horror stories before a feedback forum like this becomes a good idea?

[Chris]

Nope.

I just think you are under the impression this forum is some kind of grassroots network created for haunters, by haunters, etc.

Regardless of who owns it or created it, if this forum was not created by haunters for haunters then what exactly is it? Haunt suppliers advertise here so that haunters see their ads. Not other haunt suppliers, but haunters. Larry too is a haunt supplier in that he provides a service to haunters (a place to exchange information) and then sells the rights to advertise to those who visit. I am suggesting a relatively effortless way for Larry to inprove the service he provides.

Let me be blunt. The product Larry is selling is us -- haunters -- and he is selling access to us to advertisers. We are here because it is a good place to exchange information. If, for any reason, it stops being that place then we wont be here and neither will the people paying Larry for the rights to flash their messages in front of us. This is just like TV where advertisers pay based on the ratings of the programs.

I am making a SUGGESTION for how Larry can improve the website. Keeping sight of the reason for this forum's existance, haunters, is a good place to start.

[Greg Chrise]

If this customer service forum is off somewhere other than right here is anyone going to visit it every day? Nope. So other than that it is Lather Rinse Repeat. Even Einstien had to do that occasionally to have such groovy hair!

[Jim Warfield]

.and don't forget Larry Fine, the stooge with the wire-hair or Doctor Zorba on the old TV show "Ben Casey", Einstein hair imitators.
Did somebody say "Tators?"
Where's the gravy?

A business competitor negating his competition's business anonymously on-line?
This would never happen.
No haunts ever tell their workers to go on line and say bad things about the other guy's haunt down the block do they?
Of course critisicm can be good, this how I found out that I have a meth lab in my house! I didn't know!
I also never knew that somehow running tours every night of the year I somehow have some time to run a local satanic cult?
I am SO BUSY, more than even I knew!
Maybe I wouldn't have to pay my helpers if they all worshiped me or needed chemical stimulation I was providing, of course the quality of the tour might suffer somewhat........hahahaha!

[Inn Reaper]

There has been a lot of off subject discussion here but to sum it up.

1.) Prop building industry has a lot of work in gaining trust.
2.) Meeting deadlines.
3.) Money transactions (How to handle) (Deposits)(Delivery)
4.) Need a rating service. I think someone has started another post.

I would even offer our forum page for discussion.

www.hauntednetwork.com

Might even make sense due to the fact we are (Networking)

[haunter112]

Until Larry says otherwise this is not the forum for prop supplier "reviews."

[Greg Chrise]

Oh, I'm sorry that's not the way it works here. We wait until Larry PM's us to call him directly to seace and desist what ever activity. Until further notice you are not in charge.

[Inn Reaper]

I just want someone to do what they say. So I can sell what they do.

EASY

[Jim Warfield]

With Transworld in Feb. this year I'm counting 214 days and seven months before October...sounds like a long time to me? (To get products made and shipped)

[haunter112]

Oh, I'm sorry that's not the way it works here. We wait until Larry PM's us to call him directly to seace and desist what ever activity. Until further notice you are not in charge.

Neither are you, Mister Dunn & Broadstreet.

What's a seace?

Did you mean seance or cease?

[Greg Chrise]

No I am not in charge but, you are one of these young upstarts like Jolly Roger as well. Not quite as bad but working on it.

It's Dunn and Bradstreet by the way, a listing of credit worthiness to 4.5 million. Or Dun and Bradstreet.

I will be checking your future posts for any spelling or grammatical errors, thanks for keeping up.

[Greg Chrise]

Yes, I lost more than many get the chance to achieve. This is how perhaps you learn things the hardway. I have offered all kinds of personal information and experiences over the years on this board. I even use my full name. How about everyone else do that too, not just be little cyber dorks posting Hey here's a link to horror dork.com what do you guys thing of that?

[Jim Warfield]

Maybe it's my own lack of imagination but "Jim Warfield" was the best that I could come up with...wait, from now on call me "The King Of Siam!"
Or maybe "The bloody King of Siam"? Or maybe the Twin Kings of Siam?"
Or maybe " The Claw Marks on Your Sister's Bedroom Window?"
Sure. That's it. After a few months people will forget who I really am and I can say anything to anybody and they won't know, except your Sister, she will never forget!
"GGGRR!"
"EEEK!"

[Greg Chrise]

It may also be relative to wether you are into having massive credit listings, like owning your own corporation. Not every one is or wants to be. I certainly am not any more but it shows a level of experience good or bad perhaps I learned it as all bad and there are better things in life to try to maintain.

Like now I'm running charity haunts that barely pay the labor to set up and tear down let alone storage and such. Because the charity gets 80%. Again personal information. Go ahead and pull up all of my prior posts and you will see me trying to communicate these things and thinking out loud a bit trying to figure things out. But, I'm not incharge here. And this board is not being used like it was, a nice community of people trying to relate one anothers experiences to see if any ideas fly from that.

In fact because of the latest stream of cyber punks, old timers and the really knowlegeable do not post here any more. So perhaps even more losses is your loss too. I don't believe I have ever tried to say I am somebody and you are not unless I was joking but, frankly I don't know you, you have not provided much real personal information and I don't know you.

[Greg Chrise]

Ooops that's Jim telling me to shut up now. I have learned you too much.

[Greg Chrise]

And if you are into checking things out from history, there is this series of books in the public Library call the Thomas Register. Of course to check such things you have to back away from the computer and leave the house. You can check someone's house hold income for any region for decades in the past to verify things. I'm like such a name dropper. Oh aren't I the smart one. No butt wipe that isn't how to take such information.

And maybe if I wasn't so disturbed about what this forum has become, I could spell better, there would still be marks on my computer keys to know what the letters are supposed to be.

I have watched when I first came on years and years ago, serious name calling, to a bunch of juggalos teaching us how to swear by misspelling the words so the thing doesn't get it, to MR DB Dorey now Jolly roger and his WTF what would you have do with me. I no speak english so good what you guys on HW think.

I'm really not someone to mess with. I have nothing to live for and I will use your lungs as party balloons. ( Just kidding, J/K :lol: or what ever gets through these days or maybe I'm totally serious :( )

Oh, screw it.

[Greg Chrise]

Who ya argueing with now you old brain fart?
You're argueing with yourself arn't you?
No I'm not screw you anyhow!

This is my arguement but out fool.
Who you callin fool fool
Why ain't there no spell checker on this thing

Don't change the subject dork.

Oh, yeah, okay.....Some small percentage of vendors suck.

Thankyou for your time, you may resume your normal life.

There you go with more diatribe you a$$hole who do you think you are, you must really think you are somebody.

Go ahead say one more thing and I'm throwing this freakin dial up peice of crap out on the highway!

I'll be back to check for spelling errors.

[Greg Chrise]

Well, your just some kinda nut case aren't ya.
Screw you if they can post meaningless crap so can I.

But, dear these are just young people looking for attention. They just want to feel wanted, what were you like when you were young? Who gives a crap! I certainly wasn't able to infect the whole planet because there weren't computers! You could only stab so many with a #2 pencil before you went down. Now what do you think is going to be achieved with this line of thinking? Who cares!

Now you know that isn't right, I'm not sure I can be around someone like you.

Don't let the door hit you in the butt.

[Greg Chrise]

There, I hope you are happy now. Look what has happened.

[Greg Chrise]

I just think you are under the impression this forum is some kind of grassroots network created for haunters, by haunters, etc.

This isn't a democracy... it's a benelovent monarchy.

Haunter112, a few months ago another subject had Larry and I on the phone discussing the subject long into the night. It was also discussed why this forum remains getting daily attention. I used to go into tyrants like that quite often and to some degree it might have been funny to some but mostly I would imagine to Jim Warfied. Larry was wishing the content we reacted to or how we reacted to subjects was way more professional and restrained. He thought it would offer much more. My opinion was that rather than it being a deterent or some kind of topic by topic sabotage that people were infact coming to also be entertained, not just to collect dry data about haunted house issues.

It is a democracy otherwise Larry would be the highest poster. This sight has eveolved to being who all is on it and who participates. This includes what issues and complaints people might have with any portion of service or supply all the way to media about haunted houses. The fact is, for a great majority, haunted houses are a massive undertaking and do not bring in millions annually and so levity, sympathy and interaction are all part of what makes this forum tick.

It is natural for the newer to take up the reins where they see opportunity but it is too easy to consider that what is posted are more discussions and interaction rather than some Rogettes Rules of Order board meeting. This board has no chairman and if it was based on number of posts, it must be Jim. If it is based on number of Topics it must be Jolly Roger that is in charge. This is the only forum that has achieved well over 2,000 members and maintains them all. Although going through the 34 some pages of members maybe only 60 have a substantial number of posts, no one is really in charge as long as it works. And it is working, certainly not the way Larry had truely intended but yet quite the unique community.

All the way from veteran haunter to cyber punks are offered here. Any one can post with out having to be pre approved. And so you have a resillient environment here. very few topics are taboo and no one can speak for Larry or assume what he has in his mind. What is developed here is something futurists refer to as interacting, evolving and so on.

If you ask a bunch of 3rd graders what should be done about certain world issues the first thing a majority will say is there should be a law about it. With maturity it becomes obvious that not every issue can be policed and restraint should be offered so that the resources of society are somewhat in balance. Same goes here. No one can go over each and every post in real time 24/7 365 days per year. No one can afford to do this and still have a forum and so what has transpired here is very unusual and unique.

Even though there is not one spectrum of agreement among all of the members here, this is infact the secret of why these resources become helpful. You get a wide spectrum of perspectives. Every one is to some extent in charge but not necessarily in any manor of control. There are no needs for other forums because this is the best. People are still laible for false claims and frankly having to go 15 places to keep informed just plain sucks. And so most of it has gravitated right here, good or bad and somehow we must keep it in control only by opinions posted or derailing a topic. A really good topic cannot be derailed.

And so it goes.

If I had $17,000 I wouldn't give it top anyone unless I drove away the same day with the product. Real competition among vendors will force them to have it in stock, provide warranties and proper service only if it is a community opinion and action, not one guy getting ripped. There are vendor coilitions that attempt to qualify or make light if flaky customers and so should there be customers venting their concerns.

Other forums have this little Nazi Blurp at the top about what will ad will not be posted here. Every post might in fact be challenged by a moderator and they are dry, not the slightest entertaining and perhaps frustrating. There may be posts but no real responces beyond Wow, that's great, let me know how that works out for you. I've had more pleasurable conversations with the tellers at the bank.

And finally when I see someone making up little rules and trying to justify them, something snaps in my experience. No reason to quell a resilient environment. Other wise it becomes like the other lesser forums.

Okay start waving the flag and sing the Hauntworld song.

[Jim Warfield]

Mr. Tuxedo, The Ravens Grin Inn Spookhouse Cat has a bubble in his furr-balled little throat and a catnip-inspired tear in his eye...Gregg, you said everything he has always been trying to say, except "Pass the Mouse-Meat", but he's waiting, you might say that too?
Well done!
Hurrah!

[Greg Chrise]

Al Gore points out that due to global warming, there will be considerable increase in rodentia over the next 50 years. This means the mouse meat will likely be coming to you, perhaps faster than you would like.

[Jim Warfield]

"Global Warming" will be magnified via the friction of all those scurrying little mouse feet too, can't easily discount this influence either!
The hairless, suntanned rodent will then come into his own.
Tiny arm-pit deodrent products and tiny Harleys will...wait a minute Harley riders don't need deodrent do they?
Tiny Harleys will need full rear fender skirting to keep tails from between spokes, though.
Tatoos on mouse tails.........

[Greg Chrise]

All along I have been avoiding having to use nanotechnology or quantum particle devices to airbrush tiny things. Better to outsource it to dudes that write on rice. From writing on white rice to writing white mice. We're having a white sale!

[Jim Warfield]

But, I use a creative "Brush" as big as a house to "write" on tiny brain cells!
(Or is it, I use my house?) hahahah!
Bedtime......