View Full Version : Transworld St. Louis Seminars Revealed!!

The Ghoulish Gallery
12-31-2008, 12:51 AM
Through the collaborative efforts of Ben Armstrong (IAHA member), Tim Turner (IAHA member) and Transworld (also an IAHA member), Transworld 14th National Haunt and Attraction Show is going to have The Triple Threat: three tracks of powerful seminar designed to supercharge your Haunted Attractions! There will also be a trilogy of dynamic workshops and special earlybird seminars too. Let’s take a closer look at what is being offered:

FRIDAY, MARCH 27, 2009
Earlybird Seminar


Speakers: Jason Mendoza & Mike Knuist (IAHA members) - Conover Mystery Ranch

Explore the making of The Conover Mystery Ranch and the Sinisterium, two elaborate illusion filled haunted events hidden deep within a twenty acre corn maze! Discover how the Screamworks team achieved financial and critical success with an event made up almost entirely of recycled materials, including a haunt built out of garage doors!

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Seminar Track #1: Haunting Indoor Attractions: Haunted Houses


Speaker: Scott Simmons (IAHA member) – The Scare House

These days potential haunt customers want to know exactly what they are spending their hard earned cash to experience. Scott Simmons from THE SCAREHOUSE will reveal modern methods to brand your event as a movie caliber production, including slick photos and expertly produced videos that really give your customers a taste for more!

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Seminar Track #1: Haunting Indoor Attractions: Haunted Houses


Speaker: Dan McCullough (IAHA member) – The House of Torment

Join Dan McCullough and the House of Torment team as they explore the power of over the top art direction! See how they have taken a cinematic/video game like approach to fill their sets, costumes, characters and marketing with terrifying detail. Other topics covered will include the construction of HUGE sets and a discussion of their unique remote scare control room.

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Seminar Track #1: Haunting Indoor Attractions: Haunted Houses


Speaker: Larry Kirchner – The Darkenss

Learn how to take your Halloween event to the next level! What attractions should you add, what attractions bring in the biggest crowds? Learn how some of the biggest Halloween attractions in the industry are raking in the money by diversifying their events with multiple and retail opportunities. If you own a corn maze, zoo, or pumpkin patch then this seminar is for you.

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Seminar Track #2: Haunting Outdoor Attractions: Corm Mazes, Hayrides and Haunted Trails


Speakers: Wayne Barnechi – The Trail of Terror

For over 14 years Wayne Barneschi’s nightmarish Trail of Terror has haunted the townspeople of Wallingford, CT and donated over half a million dollars to the American Red Cross. Now he will share with you the secrets of what it takes to start up a safe and successful haunted trail, and how to take your existing outdoor haunted event to the next level!

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Seminar Track #2: Haunting Outdoor Attractions: Corm Mazes, Hayrides and Haunted Trails


Speaker: Randy Bates (IAHA member) – The Bates Motel

Hayrides have it much harder than haunted houses…they need to scare entire wagons at a time! Join Randy Bates, one of the country’s foremost experts on hayrides as he explores tried and true methods to scare massive groups all at once and still keep the wagons moving at the same time!

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Seminar Track #2: Haunting Outdoor Attractions: Corm Mazes, Hayrides and Haunted Trails


Speaker: Shawn Stolworthy – Maze Play

A fun and profitable addition to your outdoor Halloween attraction, corn mazes are a great way to expand your revenue into the daylight hours. Shawn Stolworthy of Maze Play creates over 90 corn mazes a year and will lead you through the “labyrinth” of creating a first class corn maze operation!

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EarlyBird Seminar


Speaker: Rich Hanf (IAHA member) - Master of Horror

Join world famous haunted house consultant Rich Hanf on the ins and out of producing haunted events with FECs. Plus - Hands on Haunting - Easy Exercises to teach fresh haunt actors the fine art of the scare!

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Seminar Track #3: Haunting Established Attractions: Ren Faires, Theme Parks and Family Entertainment Center


Speaker: Don Losole – The Midwest Renaissance Festival & Scary Acres

Attend this must see seminar and learn how Don Losole of Scary Acres in Omaha, Nebraska created a major event, The Midwest Renaissance Festival, from the ground up AND added a Christmas event to keep his business thriving all year long. Discover how your current infrastructure and marketing skills can bring new events online, building on your existing haunted attraction’s success!

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Seminar Track #3: Haunting Established Attractions: Ren Faires, Theme Parks and Family Entertainment Center


Speaker: Robbi Lepre’ (IAHA member) – Busch Gardens Tampa

Busch Gardens Tampa is well known for changing large parts of its event every year and refining and reimagining the rest of its attractions. How do they produce one of the largest Halloween events in the country while still operating a major theme park and a vast Zoo at the same time?

Learn how they have worked with unique themes over the years to create such a successful and terrifying event!

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Seminar Track #3: Haunting Established Attractions: Ren Faires, Theme Parks and Family Entertainment Center


Speaker: Mike “Tattoo” Krausert (IAHA member) – Nightmare New England/Terror on the Fox

Taking an existing FEC and turning it into a hugely successful Halloween event in one year? Impossible! Or is it? Find out how the staff of NIGHTMARE NEW ENGLAND pulled off a massive event and achieved both financial and artistic success in their first year!

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Workshop Track: A Trilogy of Dynamic Workshops!


Speaker: Bobbie Weiner (IAHA member) – BLOODY MARY MAKE-UP

In this in depth workshop Bobbie Weiner AKA Bloody Mary, will transforms audience members into ghoulish zombies! As an extra bonus, Bloody Mary Makeup kits for the first fifty attendees will be provided so you to can join in the fun by creating your very own Living Dead!

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Workshop Track: A Trilogy of Dynamic Workshops!


Speaker: Philip Morris (IAHA Lifetime Achievement Award Winner) – Morris Costumes

Philip Morris owner of the massive Morris Costumes will take you back 150 years in history and tell you how the very first Haunted House was created by the invention of the telegraph! You will see how the con men of that day made fortunes holding séances so their clients could communicate with their dead relatives. As a bonus Morris will show you the most Famous Costume in the World that millions upon millions still believe was the “real” Bigfoot. He will also go into detail about how the suit was created and why that hoax was so successful!

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Workshop Track: A Trilogy of Dynamic Workshops!


Speaker: T.J. Marino – Universal Halloween Horror Nights

Learn how the staff of Universal Halloween Horror Nights uses SketchUp to design their entire event. This powerful program can create 3D walk throughs; integrate with existing CAD programs, and import photo backgrounds allowing a complete design before building a single wall panel! BONUS See 3D Walkthroughs of Universal Horror Night mazes!

That's all for now. Until next time...

Scream as one,
Tim Turner, IAHA Trade Show Liaison

Come see Ghoulish Gallery, Inc. at Transworld's 14th Annual National Haunt and Attraction Show

For more info, visit: www.hauntshow.com

12-31-2008, 07:10 AM


You are actually starting to get me angry here! If we want to talk collaborative effort here lets include Larry, he was very involved in this, much more so than some..

Tim the next time you and I collaborate, I would like to know it is happening OK? That actually might make it helpful.....!

By the way, I liked the way you altered the copy to include (IAHA Member) very nice!

You are creating a very false picture here...

So because someone PAYS IAHA dues they can then be used by IAHA to market it?

You are beginning to astound me. Lets turn the portrait sideways and see the real face appearing shall we....


12-31-2008, 10:43 AM
Hey ben just one more thing to add. Did you notice The Darkness was the only thing spelled wrong? The Darkenss lol is that a jab at Larry?

12-31-2008, 10:48 AM
This guy seems to really have an axe to grind....He's not even a current haunt owner too and he's the Haunt show Liason, how does that happen?

Also IAHA, is that association still viable?


12-31-2008, 11:02 AM
Just for clarification, I also received the list of seminars and speakers directly from Transworld yesterday ... and that post does not specify which speakers are or are not IAHA members

That information was added by Tim when he posted the information on both HA and HW boards.

12-31-2008, 11:04 AM
I would say at this point he's doing more harm than good for IAHA. He is EVERYTHING that is WRONG about IAHA... he is NOT A HAUNTER, and he's the mouthpiece of IAHA. As haunters we don't want some part time vendor speaking for us or any organization formed to speak for haunters.

In my mind he only goes to cement why HHA is going to be so important... Haunters speaking for Haunters!

On another note to my knowledge Tim Turner had NOTHING to do with the seminars this was Ben's arrangement with Transworld, Ben came up with the whole thing. Once he had it more or less put together I helped him refine it and change a few things. Last year Ben and I did it together although I'll be the first to admit he did more work on it than I did.

Ben was driving himself crazy on these seminars because some of the speakers would not call him back. Ben did the seminars to the best of my knowledge!

GOOD JOB BEN! If we are going to talk about the seminars, which is great, lets nt make it out to be some kind of pissing contest its clear and away about education. Haunted House owners and operators should be the ones formulating education for our industry and that is what happened here... Again Good Job Ben!


12-31-2008, 11:35 AM
So WTF constitutes a "HAUNTER" in your mind, Larry? Is this just a phrase you throw out when you want to marginalize someone? Is a "HAUNTER" only the owner of a for-profit haunt? Are you saying that those who do non profit haunts, actors, designers, makeup artists, construction people, home haunters, vendors, etc... are not "HAUNTERS"? By your definition, it seems only YOU and a few of your friends are "HAUNTERS" (well, maybe your friends are not "HAUNTERS"). If this is what you think of us, then you have created this website for a bunch of people who are not "HAUNTERS" by your definition.

12-31-2008, 11:37 AM
sigh... all this sexual tension!! LoL

12-31-2008, 11:50 AM
If you put some tombstones in your front yard and allow trick or treaters through then you are not a haunter, at least not a pro haunter.

12-31-2008, 12:04 PM
I didn't see which track includes the IAHA vs HHA steel cage match? Is that on Friday or Saturday? It certainly seems like that is what people are trying to build up for here.

12-31-2008, 12:04 PM
A HAUNT OWNER OR OPERATOR IS WHAT I WAS REFERING TO... sorry for the confusion. A Haunter can be anyone from a home haunter to a haunted house owner. I'm speaking about the SEMINARS I mean to say that they should be produced by HAUNTED HOUSE OWNERS AND OPERATORS!

NO VENDORS INCLUDING YOURSELF should EVER be someone coming up with seminar idea's for haunted house owners.

In fact vendors should realize who they need information from to survive... they need to LEARN MORE FROM haunted house owners not the other way around.

Vendors should visit haunted houses, they should call haunted houses, they should visit their customers and find out how things lasted, what broke and why, see how they theme, explore new ideas to help the end user.

Haunted Houses will open next year and the year after that even if every single vendor shut down for business... this is a fact.

Vendors like Tim should be less vocal and have a bigger EAR because these are your customers, or people you would like to be your customers. The smart vendors are those who try to learn everything they can from haunted house owners and operators, hear their stories, ask the questions, grab their attention and hear their idea's.

Some vendors actually do this and wel some of those are very very very successfull... I get calls all the time asking 'what do you want, what do you need, what is everyone doing, what going on...'.

If vendors want to grow their business they should be doing more listening to the customers and less trying to tell them what to do or how to do it. If a vendor one October jumped in his car and drove around to 10 or 15 haunted houses, that vendor would come back with more idea's, more knowledge, more information than that person would have gathered from 10 years sitting in his or her shop.


Its one thing to build props for a haunted house and a whole other to actually run a haunted house and deal with actors, drunk people, people who want to destroy your attraction, radio stations, 5 other haunts in the same area trying to take your business, weather, baseball teams that make the World Series, and the list goes on and on.

Vendors who do not own haunted houses do not understand these issues hence should not be telling Transworld what seminars haunted house owners need to grow their business. I'll be the first to admit that some vendors have knowledge that many haunt owners do not have such as control systems, lighting, make up, those are all great things, and we need that expertise, but let haunted house owners decide what type of education they need to improve their business.

If haunts do bad, vendors suffer the most!


12-31-2008, 12:08 PM
BTW... this website is for everyone who loves Halloween to those who own haunted houses. This websites helps people find vendors to events, to haunted houses, to whatever and everything in between.

This website doesn't cost anything to join, its free!

You are not talking apples and apples... we're talking about the industries number one time to come together and those opportunities can't be lost on what isn't important.

The show isn't a fan show, and I've heard many vendors saying they wish that catalog collectors would stop coming to the show. The show is for vendors like yourself SELLING your products to QUALIFIED buyers! Period.

Eduaction is no different you want seminars for professionals and you want those seminars organized by professionals who know whats going on in the industry of owning and operating a haunted house.

I hope that explains it better for you!


12-31-2008, 02:37 PM
So, let me get this straight. Once one becomes a haunt vendor all the knowledge one had as a haunt owner/operator disappears? Because one is no longer a haunt owner operator but a haunt vendor now? Is that correct?

12-31-2008, 02:54 PM
RE: Tim Turners Transworld Seminar Announcement

I will try to be clear. I have worked on the seminars with Transworld for 3 years, often with tons of help from Larry. I have done it because I was asked, because I wanted to help.

Many of you may not know this because horn tooting is not what I do. However reading these announcements the way they were presented, it sounds like IAHA was the prime force.


Also I have NEVER even spoken to Tim Turner about the seminars. So there you go for collaboration.

This is the source of the confusion. Apparently IAHA wanted to take over the seminars. Transworld told them, in an effort to be inclusive, that they could “suggest topics and speakers” Apparently on his own Mr. Turner went out and did more behind the scenes getting speakers to call Transworld, etc. About 75% through the process I began to detect these actions as they were causing a bit of confusion for some of the speakers (as to who was in charge) and actually made wrapping up the final line up more difficult.

Were some of his suggested speakers ultimately used? Yes! Many different forces, including the desires of the vendors, the changing demographic of the show, individuals who stepped up, special requests from Transworld, and several key speakers on Corn Mazes and Ren Fairs suggested by Larry effected the final line up.

Let me say this, any number of people can do seminars, and do a great job; I have no illusions that I am any better than anyone else at this.

But this is clear….The posts made by Mr. Turner are VERY MISLEADING.

Someone also EDITED the seminar series in his posts, ADDING the IAHA MEMBERSHIPS, and in some cases deleting or CHANGING websites (On Larry’s seminar I put Hauntworld, someone changed it to The Darkness)

As to the rest of his voluminous post on the IAHA List, Hauntworld and Haunted Attraction, I have yet to digest it, opting instead to speak out on this topic first to make it very clear.

As to this ongoing policy of sticking IAHA MEMBER on any name that can be found I find it to be extremely annoying. Does the fact that I paid association money give them to right to claim credit for any work I may do? NO! Let me determine what goes behind my name! It is usually nothing or just my Haunt NETHERWORLD. I don’t need to drag my resume with me with every post, thank you.

Clearly this NAME FLAGGING is more in the timing.

“It is time to renew your membership again guys look at all we DO!” Sorry I am not buying it.

Tim if anything I have said is wrong…correct me.

For the rest of you guys, I think the seminars will be terrific! I am sorry if any of this would turn you off to them. I don’t care about credit…I would prefer to remain out of the picture like I have the last few years and let the content speak for itself.

But this was WRONG.


12-31-2008, 05:58 PM
Larry correct me if I am wrong. But your a Haunt owner and a Vendor as several are in this industry. Can you not be both? The way I take your post is you have to be one or the other. This should include yourself. Also it should not matter if your a "for profit" haunter or a "charity" haunter? Shane

12-31-2008, 08:11 PM
First off you are CLEARLY making a mountain out of a mole hill... this is a message board and if we talked by phone or in person you would understand my position. There is so many people talking, so many people saying things and you are trying to answer everyone.

I am a VENDOR maybe Gore Galore doesn't think so but I'm a huge vendor. We have built over 100 haunted houses, we even built two haunted houses this past year, we make animations, and we have over 2000 customers for the magazine, and over 3000 for our haunt directory. I'd say yes we are a vendor...

First before anything we owned a haunted house we built everything ourselves we bought nothing for no vendors... back in those days there was no such thing. We ran a haunted house for five years then went to the Transworld show before 99.9% of every current vendor selling things today. The only 'HAUNT" only vendor that is still in business today that was at the show back when we first displayed was Distortions, John Denely was a vendor back then, Leonard Pickel he didn't even get a booth until the year after we did.

People like Gag, Morris, Cinema Secrets all those guys where around but HAUNT only vendors only Distortions and John Denley. Those are the only two I can remember being a vendor prior to us being a vendor. I know Elm Street was around back then but I'm not sure if they took booths at TW before we did or not but they where around before us that I do know.

Back in those days there was NOT many vendors, you pretty much made things yourself. I was at the first ever haunt seminars ONE room about 50 people and one microphone. That is how long I've been around.

I know I'm getting old... and I hate it! LOL

Now bottom line is this... you can be vendor and a haunt owner, and we already know there are several people who are vendors and haunt owners. Many vendors became haunt owners like Creative Visions and Distortions only to later close those attractions and go back to only being a vendor.

SO yes you can be a haunt owner and a vendor, or a vendor and a haunt owner... I know several vendors today who tell me they are going to open a haunted house. NO ONE IS SAYING that some vendor isn't smart enough or creative enough to open a haunt, however I know vendors who have and regretted it dearly. Its not easy, its very very very hard!

Many haunt owners have become vendors because they have created products for their own haunt and then want to sell them and have been very successful...most recently Spookywoods.

We were haunt owners and became vendors and so can anyone else.

The point was and still is that haunted house vendors who do not own haunts should NOT be dictating what seminars haunts need or should do. YOU DO NOT OWN A HAUNT... you think you understand it and maybe you do to some degree but really you don't. NO ONE DOES until they do it... many people with get rich quick schemes have tried it only to lose tens of thousands of dollars. Its really no different than the food or bar business, you think its nothing but money until you do it and lose everything.

My point is if you do NOT own a haunt then you should not be telling the haunt industry what we should or shouldn't do ... this goes TRIPLE for Tim Turner who does not own a haunt and in my opinion is a part time vendor who is really more of a retail vendor. Tim Turner should not be speaking for an assocaition of haunted house owners, if anything he should be asking them for their support, their idea's and trying whenever he can to learn from them so he can continue to make a living from their success.

I think the bottom line is really simple... vendors do not exist without haunt owners, and haunt owners will continue to exist as they did before with or without vendors.

If vendors do not make products haunt owners want, or can afford, or need you are done out of business, but the haunt will go on. Vendors shouldn't be trying to get in the middle of haunted house owners affairs, they should be trying to learn from them and understand what they want and need.

It amazes me how much time Tim can spend on all this politics, you wonder if he took that same time visiting haunts, or talking to them about what they want or need he could be like many others much more successful selling to haunt owners.

If your market is haunt owners you need to learn from them to keep you in business not the other way around. If your market is home haunters same thing you need to learn what they need and can afford to stay in business... no different than selling cars, or anything else.


The Ghoulish Gallery
01-01-2009, 12:14 AM
Larry, I don't know why you are even giving anyone advice on anything. When people have to constantly reinforce the idea that Transworld's 14th National Haunt And Attraction Show in not the "Larry show" something is pretty screwed up. When the Haunted House Association has to openly proclaim that you are not their spokesperson, and that it is not the "Larry Association," something is horribly wrong. But when you yourself have to say it, which you have on several occasions, that is a complete disaster. Maybe you should clean the trash out of your own yard before you start throwing your garbage in the yards of others.

And by the way, I saw your snarky little post where you called me a liar for revealing that you told me, over a year ago, that you were setting up HHA to screw over IAHA. So, since you've called me a liar, let me up the ante and reveal that in that same conversation, you told me that Ben Armstrong would be HHA's President. That hasn't been made public yet so there is no way I would know this unless yo told me. Again, that was over a year ago. So let's all wait and see if Ben becomes HHA President and then we all know who is lying.

-Tim Turner

The Ghoulish Gallery
01-01-2009, 12:16 AM

Everyone is aware that you contribute a lot in the way of education or seminars. No one is taking that away from you, especially me, so stop getting your knickers in a twist.

Similar to your experience, IAHA was approach by Jen and asked to make suggestions for seminars and even key note speakers. Like you, IAHA wanted to help in any way we could.

While you have clearly done the lion's share of work in putting together this seminars series, to say IAHA had nothing to with seminars is a complete fabrication.

It is true that you and I did not talk about the seminars but why should we...this is TRANSWORLD'S seminar series, not the Ben Armstong Show. IAHA was asked to submit their ideas directly to Transworld. We did. I'm guessing you were asked to do the same. I assume you did. If Larry made some contribution to this whole thing then that's news to me. Jen never even mentioned it. Not even once.

As far as my comments about a collaborative effort go, what I wrote is the exact phrasing given to me by Jen just yesterday. This is how she told me she described the development of this year's seminar series in a recent interview with TAPS magazine. Obviously, Transworld wants to give credit where credit is due. Why do you have a such a problem with that if you are really not out to toot your own horn? Perhaps it's time to stop for a moment, take a deep breath, and ask yourself if you would have had the same negative, knee jerk reaction were you to have read Jen's collaboration comment in the TAPS magazine article yourself. Personally, I thought it was great that Jen was giving everyone involved credit for their efforts. Still, it is sad that you have interpreted my comments to have some type of motive other than exactly what was written. They do not. They were simply a repeat of what I had been told by Jen. And if anybody is whispering in your ear that my comments STILL must have an ulterior motive, please lean over and whisper back to them that I say they are full of bovine fecal matter

Moving on....

Your suggestion that IAHA wanted to take over the seminars is complete bull$hit. That allegation sounds like it came directly from the Larry Kirchner playbook. Again, like you, we suggested seminar speakers. I have no idea what you mean when you wrote that I went out and did more "behind the scenes" things getting speakers to call Transworld, etc. There was nothing "behind the scenes" about it. I simply called Jen, shared my ideas on possible speakers and if she liked it, I called up the potential speaker, asked them if they would be interested in doing a seminar for Transworld, and if they agreed, I immediately removed myself from the situation so that they and Transworld could negotiate the details. It was nothing more than that and I don't appreciate the insinuation that there was something cloak and dagger going on.

As far as my editing the seminar info goes, yes I absolutely did that, not just with the Seminar list but also with the Sponsor list and the Advisory Board list. The reason I did this is because I feel it is important to recognize IAHA members for their positive contribution to this industry. That's nothing new, I've done the Isabella Awards for several years now. Obviously I'm fairly big on recognition. But how on earth you or anyone else can twist this into something that is, as you say "name flagging" is just an amazing leap in logic. And to then suggest that this was my way of saying "It is time to renew your membership again guys look at all we do," well I don't even know how to respond to that type of childishness. I guess I could just as easily say, "hey everyone, look at how HHA Interim Board members continue in their attempts to discredit IAHA as a means to build their own membership." The difference is that there is actually some truth to what I say.

But what really blows me away about your post, Ben, is when you wrote:

"Tim if anything I have said is wrong…correct me."

Ben, if you didn't know if what you were about to post was even correct, you never should have posted it in a public forum. I'm always open to public discussion on a given issue, even heated debates, but please know your facts before you start making careless and unsubstantiated allegation about anyone in this industry.

Tim Turner, IAHA Trade Show Liaison

PS: My computer has a Trojan virus that I can't seem to remove. I'm taking it to get repaired in the AM. As a result, I won't be able to respond to any additional posts until probably Monday. So, if you don't see me respond, that's the reason. I'll catch up to any additional posts as soon as I get my computer back. Thanks.

Come see Ghoulish Gallery, Inc. at Transworld's 14th Annual National Haunt and Attraction Show

For more info, visit: www.hauntshow.com

01-01-2009, 12:18 AM
I cant agree more with Mr. Armstrong...When IAHA contacted me or I contacted them...I asked what benefit would I get just being an actor...and the overwhelming response was...NONE! They made it seem that if your an actor then who cares...If your not in the group to benefit IAHA then what does it matter...And dont get me wrong I understand if IAHA doesnt want actors...because they are actors but when Im on the phone and the person (name and title Withheld) says Tater...there is no benefit for you to join IAHA..it kinda makes me laugh that this group is getting the Rec. its getting. I mean heck if I payed the dues..I can get a fancy badge behind my name...instead all i get is

Tater....and you know that works for me....

P.S. I have nothing but respect for Ben Armstrong...if it was his show I would go...Everything I hear about him and his Haunt is positive. With that said Ive dealt with Tim Turner...but he doesn't seem that bad to me. Apparently he was posting this the same time I was. Tim, you seme like a good guy but posting IAHA members and whos not at the seminars was just BS....Would you do the same if it was HHA members?

01-01-2009, 02:32 AM

Let me remind you that you are NOT a haunt owner and YOU should NOT be someone who should be the spokeman for haunt owners and I can tell you in no uncertain terms... you have offended many.

You are living breathing example why IAHA is all messed up. For the record Tim, it is my understanding that during an interview on RFR you said you quit IAHA because you didn't think it was any good but came back when they asked you to join their board. So tell us what changed from the year you quit to this past year... how is it any better, what did they do different or better than the year you quit?

Additionally Tim you have told me VERY recently that you think IAHA is lost, and you will again quit IAHA because you feel they don't do the things they should do and you have told me clear as day that you look forward to HHA and hope it can do what IAHA can not seem to do. How this appears to me is all of a sudden now that HHA is a reality you are taking eveything personal.

WHY? You are not a haunt owner! Are you?

Why are you even a board member for an association that claims to represent haunted house owners? Explain that! What do you know about running a haunted house, did you own or operate one last year?

I would think someone who sells a product that no one really needs you'd be nicer to haunt owner, trying to get them to buy things from you not the other way around.


Let me set you straight about this once and for all... Transworlds seminars went straight down the tubes to the point they cancelled them because no one would buy a ticket. Transworld came TO ME AND ME ONLY to help them turn them around...NOT IAHA and not even Ben. I sat down with them several times and argued with them on how it should be done I was told several times what I suggested wouldn't work, blah, blah.

I told them to reduce costs, put all the seminars in one room, and not have seminars compete with each other, and last but not least I told them to NOT focus on having speakers who BEG to be speakers but focus on people who actually know something. They told me I had great idea's but they didn't like the idea of all the seminars in one room, blah, blah.

Then all of a sudden they decided to go with a propsoal for Cydney Neil...they flew her up there and she worked from there on all these seminar idea's. They called me and told me what she wanted to do and I told them it wouldn't work because it was to far over everyones heads and the topics where just way to far off what they needed to do to resurect the seminar series. For the record I think what Cydney wanted to do was great but when you are restarting these from the grave you needed to think simpler.

They told me they are going with them... then all of a sudden I got a call like 3 days later from Gregg and he said nope we're not going with Cydney's seminars because it would cost to much and thought I was right a different approach was needed. This thing went back and forth back and forth for months.

So then... they said LARRY and NO ONE ELSE can you come up with the seminar series and the plan and yes they wanted to do my plan which included all the seminars in one room, and the round tables I had proposed and everything.

So I said to them... Ben Armstrong should help and I approached him to help me and he agreed. We came up with the whole program and I was told by TW it was the most successful money making seminar series they have ever had.

The second year they came back to me again and asked me to do it once again... I went to Ben and he said he really didn't want to do it again. But I kept asking and finally he agreed to come on board again. Again it was simply myself and Ben.

Fast forwarding to this year, Transworld asked Ben if he woud do it and I helped him instead of the other way around. Ben came up with the concept for this years seminars, he came up with the whole idea of using speakers from haunts on the rise, blah, blah. He showed me what he had I put my two cents in and I changed some things and suggested a few other speakers, and I talked to Jen many times about the seminars, because she wanted to know how to get in touch with certain speakers.

Bottom line is Ben did most of the work and I helped him. The two years before I was the lead on it with Ben although Ben still did most of the work I might add. But you Tim... I've NEVER HEARD YOUR NAME EVER!

You are not involved, IAHA was NEVER involved, and at no time did anyone from Transworld ever direct me to talk to you, or Ben to talk to you, or for that matter IAHA.

I have NO clue what you are talking about... so I would go along with Ben in basically calling you a liar and or letting you know that you just don't know the facts as usual!

Lastly, as for the new association THERE IS ONLY ONE PERSON that keeps posting over and over again calling it 'Larry's Association' and that would be you sir. Its your way of trying what others tried with the Tradeshow saying 'Larry's Show'. Its your way of trying to say to people... if you don't trust Larry don't join.

So with that being said let me fill you in sir...

1) HHA is NOT the Larry Association. My involvement was no different than getting this HAUNT ONLY SHOW going, which I've had more to do with than you or IAHA times 5000 years. The show is started, its rolling and no longer do you see anyone saying the 'Larry Show'.

HHA will not be weighed down by bylaws that keep the association from doing for the industry what needs to be done, things IAHA has failed on EVERY level to deliver and they had a 10 year head start. Again why you would care since you do NOT own a haunt is beside me.

However IT IS NOT THE LARRY ASSOCIATION as you keep posting, its the Haunted House Industry association... there is a board now, there will be bylaws, there will be an agenda, there will be goals and through solid leadership of HAUNT OWNERS we will work HARD to make this industry better than ever.

The common thing you hear about IAHA is 'it doesn't do anything for my business'. As far as I'm concerned the great thing about IAHA is a model of how to make HHA successful where IAHA failed. IAHA failed because its not directed strickly by haunt owners, rather we have people like you as the sole spokesman. Where is the President, where is another haunt owner who's a board member speaking up on its behalf. We don't see that do we just YOU a guy who isn't really even a vendor.

I will say one last time for the record... as far as I'm concerned good luck to whatever IAHA does in the future and if they survive another 20 years good for them. I just DO NOT WANT IAHA speaking for HAUNT OWNERS especially in time of crisis, or to the national media. Haunt owners should and will speak for their industry through HHA.

I'm working on the HHA website all weekend. Hopefully by the middle of next week it will be updated. HHA will have much to do over the next 3 months and in the end this association will attempt to accomplish much.

If you think all of your posts and all of your attacks will somehow derail what is going on it won't... you are just personally making your company look bad and turning people off to IAHA.

HHA will start national public relations, national heath care programs, and many other things including as you mentioned TAP magazine.

Speaking of TAP (Tourist Parks and Attractions) if IAHA is so professional then why is HHA now heading up the TAP magazine section in their magazine? We have even been approached by Haunted Attraction Magazine and we'll hopefully work with HAM and Leonard, and Hauntcon on top of MHC, Transworld and eventually HHA will contact IAAPA amoung other associations.

We will establish a PROFESSIONAL working relationship with IAAPA, TAP Magazine, and any of the other haunt industry magazines or related association that want a professional relationship. HHA will work to establish itself as the go to group with the national media with the sole purpose to promote our industry.

Eventually Tim, through the success of HHA ALL VENDORS including yourself will benefit from our agendas because when haunts make more money vendors make more money.

This is what its all about... lets keep haunts on the rise, lets keep haunts going forward, learning, expanding, and finding new customers, and from there it all rolls down hill into vendors pockets, our ablity to make this full time jobs and support our familes.

Its really about nothing more Tim. So why don't you offer your support and join HHA today! As a vendor you will gain some very valuable promotion for your business!


01-01-2009, 08:05 AM
Yall know I like a heated debate as much as the next one. But I think before I patted myself on the back 5 million times I would make sure its not going to bite me in the ass. Its very clear that Ben has played a big part in this and from what I can read Tim and Larry has too. Again this is how I am taking it. But I only see one saying me and only me, I, I, I, it just turns people off trust me. Like Larry says Tim has offended many. Larry that same thing can go for you with all the Bragg, Bragg, Bragg stuff. Again nothing personal but the bragging stuff comes off sickening. Thats like when a group comes up with a cure to a disease and one person yells I did it with no help from anyone. AGAIN ITS A GROUP EFFORT!!!!!! People that bragg all the time are usually found out to be just that braggers. This is just as I see it and the others thats talking but want post here LOL. Again Tim call Larry, Larry stop bragging and Ben all I can say is Good Luck your gonna need it with all this going on. If anyone can get this straight it's Ben I am sure. Shane and its Tim Larry says I have offended many too welcome to the club Shane this time.

01-01-2009, 08:53 AM
I think you should let the people involved work through it instead of everyone adding their own opinions further clouding the situation. When you do things you can tell people you've done them, its not bragging. Larry has done alot more regarding the topics in this thread than you have, so theres not much you can say to contradict since you played no real part in any of it, right? When you do things and make things happen, you've earned the right to brag if you so choose to...


01-01-2009, 09:23 AM
Hey Tim.

I stand by what I wrote.

This year I was the paid seminar coordinator, as I was the last two years before along with Larry. In those two years Larry was the prime mover and I did most of the ground work and organization… Now THAT was Collaboration. I was HIRED by Transworld to do this. Of COURSE I took suggestions from many sources (Primarily Transworld and Larry) but it was my JOB, to make the call and present a list to Transworld. At every step I coordinated with Jen. Is it patting myself on the back to tell you my actual JOB DESCRIPTION? This is FACT, if you want to KNOW ASK HER.

There is NO Gray area.

Once again I state -

1) I don't care about credit - THE ONLY reason we are reading about this here was the way you presented the information - It was very MISLEADING. Have you heard me talking about it the last two years? NOPE.

2) Did IAHA want to do the seminars? YES. You see I can speak for myself. You cannot speak for IAHA, it is a many headed Hydra. Talk to your President. You are INCCORECT again. It is FACT.

You stated on RFR you were a one year member and quit - Until the board came back and appointed you to the board to be a Tradeshow lead.

I have been a dues paying member for 10 years - I was on the board twice. I am very aware of its real successes and failures; I have a LOT invested in that organization as do many. I know it WELL. But I will admit I have NO IDEA what the heck current leadership is doing - That is a big problem.

The time has come for a Haunt Owner group - The writing is on the wall.

I think over time this will help focus and strengthen IAHA. I want IAHA to live and find a real focus - I see HHA, HHVA and IAHA basically covering ALL facets of the Haunt industry well, and working TOGETHER.

You are fighting a fight for a thing you know almost nothing about, with MISLEADING or INCORRECT information in a battle ground were you have NO stake.

Let Haunt owners do what they will, it is none of your concern. I was asked to be in HHVA but I declined. I am not a vendor. YOU ARE.
Go get into vendor politics, there is a lot to do there I am sure.

I do not intend to get personal with you Tim, but I have to set the record straight.

I am not the guy that talks about fecal matter and undergarments, and I do not plan to go there. You have really suprised me I must admit.

If you have ANY doubts go directly to Jen and discover the FACTS.



01-01-2009, 03:44 PM

No bragging... NOT ONE TIME IN THE PAST THREE YEARS have you seen me mention ONE FREAKIN TIME that I was doing these seminars. NOT ONE TIME... I was working for Transworld, and realy doing it on behalf of the industry. We needed someone who actually is in the trenches who knows the industry rather than Dennis Gorg, or others who are not in the industry.

Over the past three years sine Ben and myself have been doing the semainrs for Transworld they have increased the revenue, the attendance, and most important the feedback from the people who buy the tickets. The latter is the only thing that matters...if the people who go to the seminars feel the speakers are qualified, have topics that help their business they will buy another ticket the next year. True or false.

Prior years it was a popularity contest with all sorts of horrible speakers, on topics that made no sense to anyone. SEE ANOTHER POINT WHY you need an organization like HHA so haunters can speak for themselves create education for our industry...Transworld doesn't know our industry, neither did Dennis Gorg and certaintly TIM TURNER doesn't understand our industry either.

My only point to outline how all this came down the pike is because Tim Turner is sitting here taking all this credit for all this stuff when he has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT...

So Shane sorry for the 'I' or whatever... what else do you want me to say how it happened. It happened just as I described. Tim Turner claimed the whole thing happened one way whe it didn't. I've never ever heard his name mentioned in the whole three years I've been involved.

I'm not doing this for credit, I'm doing it for the same reason I told TW... HAUNT OWNERS NEED TO CREATE THESE SEMINARS not a Dennis Gorg and again certainly not a Tim Turner.

I can only tell you Shane how everything happened... to summerize

Transworld seminar series failed and they stopped doing.

The following year they wanted to re-start them so I was contacted by TW and I pitched them my ideas on it just like IAHA did, just like other people did, just like several people did.

They wanted to go with my concept but instead hired Cydney. Then they decided against that and came back to me to help them, and I brought Ben on board to help me.

That year and the following year they hired myself and Ben to produce these seminars. This year they only hired Ben to work on the seminars and Ben had myself help them as did TW.

This is just how it all happened...its not bragging because I don't care who gets credit. I only care about haunted house owners learning something so as an industry we can grow. I personally got tired of all that silly speakers, silly topics that did NOTHING to educatate our industry.

You can't lose these golden opportunities and it was high time they where created by people who are actually owners!

Same reason why HHA needs to be started...

Hopefully down the road maybe HHA will be hired by TW to do the seminars... I'm fine with and will help them whenever I can!


01-01-2009, 03:58 PM
Ok fair enough. Thanks for the responce. Shane

01-01-2009, 04:59 PM
Hopefully TW will utilize the advisory council the have put in place and listen to the counsensus of the group and take the pressure off you Larry.

TW seems open to ideas, and yet at the same time not focused on anything for very long. Too easily swayed and not grounded enough to realize what they should really do.

TW needs to use the advisory council. period.

01-01-2009, 05:34 PM

My goal was never to head all this stuff up, my original goal with the seminars going back three years was to take advantage of our time together and get some good seminars on the table so haunters can learn and grow.

Haunted house OWNERS know the industry, and those haunt owners should be coming up with the topics and seeking out those of us who we feel has something to teach us. With education its very important to get it right.

I have always felt and will continue to feel that if we can educate our industry we will all do better!!!! Education is KEY!

I'm glad we have someone like Ben in charge!

Thanks Ben!!!


01-01-2009, 10:26 PM
I just wrote what I believed was a well thought out post on this topic, and for some reason, when I hit submit reply, I was asked to log in again, and poof, my post was gone! Bummer, and a bigger bummer that it probably has something to do with my lack of Mac knowledge on why it happened.

So, I'll try to put it in a nutshell.

This whole situation reminds me of something a friend told me, who heard it from someone else (I don't remember who the ultimate credit goes to), "stop telling me how cool you are, and just be cool"

I think both associations should stop worrying about what the other is doing, and just do what they think is best. In the end, the dust will settle, things will be clear, and hopefully both associations will be judged by what they have done for the industry. Not by what some want to claim they are doing, or have done.

Not to add fuel to this fire, I do want to point out 2 things.

First, when Tim posted the seminar schedule, I took a quick glance, and noticed that many of the presenters names were those that are either board members of the HHA, or affiliated with America Haunts. So even though the IAHA, or a representative of the IAHA posted it, it only took me a minute to see who likely put the seminars together, so I did find it strange that someone representing the IAHA would post it, especially here.

Second, I don't know Ben that well (have communicated via email a couple times), but what I do know, is that through my years of reading these boards, he has always posted well thought out and unbiased posts. I've never seen him get mad or out of sorts like in this thread. But even good communicators who are able to maintain composure will finally reach a point of "enough is enough". So because of his past track record, which I believe speaks volumes, I'm inclined to believe what he says.

I also don't know Tim all that well (have met and shared a dinner with mutual friends once) Tim seemed like a fun and decent guy. But even the best of us, when our backs are against the wall will come out swinging. Tim obviously feels strongly about what he believes in, however, the name calling and bringing out of information from conversations with people in confidence, is probably not the best way to get your message out.

My point being, and going back to what I said at the beginning of this post, is you don't need to argue it out in front of everyone. We all see what's going on, and are capable of forming our own opinions, regardless of what we are being told, or sold.

The HHA seems poised for growth, and the IAHA seems to have it's back against the wall a bit, if both associations stop worrying about the other, and just do what they think is best, in the end it'll all work itself out. Maybe we'll end up with some sort of "2 party" system, which who knows, maybe will be a good thing, it's worked elsewhere, kind of :)

Or maybe I'm wrong, and should resist the urge to put in my nickels worth, after all, everyone loves a good drama, heck I've been tuning in.


01-02-2009, 06:30 AM
I have been biting my tongue on this subject for many weeks but, as is usually the case, I find it necessary to throw in my two cents.

I find it absolutely hilarious that so many people are working so hard and passionately to make money for a third-party, non-haunt company, namely Transworld Exhibits. LOL I must congratulate them on their ability to get the masses so worked up that they are working for free to promote their product. So hard that they are willing to argue over who is working harder. Amazing...

It was not that long ago that some were saying that these shows were not even needed. In the age of the Internet and catalogs on DVD, why do we even need to go to trade shows?

It was not that long ago that some were arguing that even the seminar series were not needed because you could get all of the information you needed and questions answered right here on the forums.

It was not that long ago that people took the position that the social events were not important to a trade show. People should be more focused on buying and selling.

It is fun to watch positions change...

In the mean time, MHC will continue to do what it thinks is best for MHC. What is best for MHC you ask? It is simply putting together a show that people want to come to and enjoy themselves. As long as we make our customers happy, and more of them come each year, then we know we are accomplishing our goals. A simple formula really. :)

Boo Crew Production
01-02-2009, 07:05 AM

So very well said!

01-02-2009, 07:45 AM
Ben put together a great lineup. All the additional help ( not just Tim) reminds me of the old saying, too many cooks spoil the meal.

TW should name their rep when they hire someone and let it be known through all the boards and venues. The two groups should be asked if the members can list their affiliation in PR. The speakers should be asked for their membership affiliation and told it will be listed. I am sure many of those listed speakers are members of both. The named rep should be the one that puts out all info on these then.

Now I will second the idea that BOTH the IAHA and HHA work cordially with each other and do what they want to do in the directions they need to go, but STOP the animosity. (*&^J(&&G Stop belittlling each others' experience and resumes. The horn blowing (self promo) sometimes is deafening as well.

It doesn't do either group any good. There will be very few secrets between the two groups as time goes on.

Those involved, in both good and bad, with respect to the industry and these two groups actions, are transparent to most anyway. So STOP trying to act like the emporer with no clothes.

Consider the alternative: The media, other groups like IAAPA, and the public will see the groups' conflicts and ignore BOTH in many ways: News stories to the public, convention advice, safety regulations, and many other things.

Trying to occupy the same spot while claiming to have different agendas and purposes is not what I am seeing. The new board of HHA definitely has to step up while the current IAHA board needs to continue to move forward in the direction the set.

01-02-2009, 09:09 AM
I agree.

I want there to be no battling. I want the HHA to launch and do its own thing. Did you see HHA or any other affiliation on a seminar list I sent out?


I wanted you to see the individuals and companies that stepped up for the unique ideas the brought to the table, to go to their websites and be interested in what they have to say. As to the make-up of the speakers they are over the place.

You have two theme parks, Universal and Busch Gardens. You have Vendors, Bloody Mary and Morris. You have a Ren Fair and a Corn Maze Consultant, You have Tattoo who is an IAHA board member, you have Randy Bates who is in IAHA, HHA and AM Haunts! You have long term haunters who are pretty much doing their own thing like Wayne Barneschi and Rich Hanf (Wayne is now on the interim HHA board, true) Larry is there, as are emerging Haunts like Scarehouse and House of Torment, And the Conover Mystery Ranch very few have heard of.. One I think Tim urged to step up.

I think you have 2 AM Haunts and several HHA interim board members, but the HHA board actually formed well after the seminars were pretty much complete - sort of the cart following the horse on that one. Any number of these folks are IAHA members as Tim pointed out but what matters is not what club they are in but rather what knowledge they bring to the table.

Anyway the point is to make a great seminar series that benefits the attendees, and to make one that covers many disciplines beyond just Haunted Houses. I think you have a VAST range of knowledge here, certainly something for every style of haunter. I hope you like it!

As to HHA we are working hard every day to build the framework and make something that will be a powerful positive force for this industry.

Beyond that we will take it as it goes. Once again I am sorry if I caused any excitement, but just could not let what I saw stand unanswered.


01-02-2009, 02:33 PM
Let me reply to SEVERAL PEOPLE...


I agree with you. Tim Turner has come out swinging, he's been slamming HHA, he's been on the attack this whole time. I told him the same as I have told others, and like I told Transworld... Let IAHA stand on its own two feet, let them do what they do and live or die on their own. Let the industry judge with their wallets and their support if they want to continue to support IAHA or HHA for that matter. In the end haunt owners want to spend their money on something that is going to earn their support, something they can trust will help the whole industry and their own business. Has IAHA done that or been the source of endless debate and drama? If you think IAHA has supported your business then write them another check. YOU HAVE TO DECIDE FOR YOURSELF what is going to help your business.

Supporting an association shouldn't be for some dinner once a year, it should be for being active, being aggressive to get the media turned onto our industry each October with positive stories, it should be about dealing with problems we wall face as small business owners like heath care.

STOP THE SLAMMING and just let your wallets speak for you, choose which organization you want to support and write a check but THEN GET INVOLVED AND MAKE IT BETTER no matter what organization you support.


Hauntworld supports MHC and we will continue to support MHC. In our last magazine we made a free ad of sorts of MHC, and we will post all of the MHC stuff in our blogs and continue to host a free message board for MHC. There is NO QUESTION IN MY MIND that MHC is done from the heart, for the industry, by some hard working people including yourself and you deserve everyones support.


I will do everything that I can to focus simply on HHA and the industry. Last night I spent 6 hours re-writting the whole entire HHA website. Now its in Rogues Hollows hands to update it. Later this month we'll get the members only directory up and running. Before too long the whole website will be going strong. My focus is on making the industry better, more professional and to grow our audience. I can't help what Tim is doing or the attacks he's made, but you know me its hard to ignore them. My goal is not to work with IAHA, my goal is to work with professionals who own and operate haunted houses and working with them to finding ways to grow our industry. As far as I'm concerned I don't need to mention their names or that organization ever again... if they have something accurate and positive to say let them say it. There has been NO IAHA President, Vice President, or any other haunt owning board member to step up and say a word to the haunt community in years. It's like the do not exist so when someone like Tim comes along blasting away, you can't just ignore his allegations. I agree we should focus on what we plan to do, so yes it would be nice if a certain someone would stop trying to derail that and that same certain someone should turn his focus on the positive things they are doing and we'll do the same.

My focus is strickly on making HHA STRONGER! My focus is on helping the haunted attractions nationwide to become stronger. My focus is 110% on this very goal and nothing else. If IAHA finds support for what they do good for them, they are not my focus! YOU SOMEONE WHO IS running a haunted house is MY FOCUS!


01-03-2009, 09:59 AM
So I may have spoken a bit too early, after my last post, I was checking email, and I read my IAHA email. There was a message from Tim that said a couple things that I disagreed with, TOTALLY. But the statement that stuck in my head was this.

"In my last report, I shared that Transworld and the International Association of Haunted Attractions (IAHA) had repaired their relationship. That is still very much the case. Much of the reason for this is that both parties have discovered they share many of the same objectives, one of which is to unite the haunt industry."

I then continued to read this message, which in my opinion was filled with comments directed, although not always blatantly, at either Larry or the HHA.

Tim, I already stated this in my last post, but after reading your message, I have to say again, I don't think this is a good way to get your message out, especially if you claim you are trying to unite the haunt industry. Your message about what the IAHA is doing, and how well they are doing it, goes unheard when you state it in this manner. Once again, I believe the IAHA should just keep moving forward, do what you think is best, let the people/industry decide. Using one of the ideas from your email, competition can make people step up their game. I'm not trying to be rude, but I really think you should practice what you are preaching.

Conversely, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I have seen posts from Ben on the boards here, that he hopes that IAHA continues to move forward and is successful. This I believe is more inline with how things should be approached.

You know I could be totally off base here, and the reason no one has heard much from other IAHA board members, is that they are doing just what I believe they should, and are too busy moving forward to be concerned with some of this, maybe additional IAHA board members should speak up as to whether or not Tim is the "official" voice of the IAHA.


I agree with most of what you are saying. Since you brought it up, let me explain my current position on the IAHA. Currently I would support them for basically three reasons.

Through their relationship with IAAPA I am able to take advantage of member pricing on the IAAPA trade show registration. In the past this wasn't a consideration for me, as another company (not haunt related) that I was affiliated with registered me for the show each year. This has saved our business money.

Second, I have taken advantage of some of their vendor discounts, including a discount from a vendor I had worked with for years, who honored their new IAHA discount, even though we were already working together. This has saved our business money.

And last, IAHA in the past has provided some interesting resources and information, and let's face it, there's not a ton of information out there about our business, so this isn't a bad thing.

For the money I spend on an IAHA membership, I believe I have received enough value for the money, I haven't really expected anything else from them. As I have said in the past, when the HHA offers me the same, or better, I may reconsider. I may also reconsider should the mudslinging continue. Even though I have stated that I have read it, it's really not something anyone should make time for.


01-03-2009, 07:58 PM

Good points however let me point out a few things... HHA has a vendor program as well and it includes vendors IAHA doesn't have like Scarefactory and discounts better than anything IAHA has including the best deal from Ghost Ride. Additionall we have someone working on EXPANDING THIS to make it the biggest one out there and will include discounts on banners from hauntworld and hauntedhouse.com. That is also in the works. So yeah I understand what you are saying but we will have the best most comprehensive one offered. You can bank on that.

Secondly, as for the relation with IAAPA, that deal was only for last years show. HHA will pick this up and start to work with IAAPA, this is on the agenda and I can assure you that HHA will be the association that ends up with the most comprehensive agreements with IAAPA. I know them well and have been a member for 16 years. They will be in the plans and are on the agenda.

Its really no different than say TAP magazine, who use to work with IAHA and now only work with HHA. TAP magazine was looking to work with a more professional organization with a focus on real buyers, owners and operators. The same can be said about IAAPA, they are only looking to get more vendors and more attendees to their show which is something HHA will bring them more so than any other organization.

Now with that being said, I'm not asking you to choose one or the other just pointing out what is going on or what will happen soon. You make good points and trust me this was already part of the plan.

If you choose to join and maintain a membership to mutliple organizations from HHA to IAAPA to whomever that is your choice as a business owner. I respect that 110%.