View Full Version : Bad Economy...this is GREAT (read on)

02-02-2009, 10:34 PM
I'm not happy that people have lost their jobs, or people have lost thier homes, but talking strictly from a haunt owners perspective things couldn't be better... here is why!

We got in this mess in the first place because of greedy workers wanting more money, inflation rose past income, people just wanted more more more and there is a ceiling where you just can't pay. This is good news for the haunt industry because we thrive in a bad economy.

When times are GREAT and investment is GREAT what happens... developers buy all the buildings and turn them into lofts, or whatever freezing you out of good locations. When you do find a good location what happens the people want a zillion dollars for rent. You find a property to buy and they want way more than its worth!


MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF SQUARE FEET will be coming online right now for LEASE, or for PURCHASE! You might be able to get owner finance right now, something unthinkable 2 years ago. You might be able to buy something you want when 2 years again again unthinkable.

NOW IS THE TIME TO BUY OR SIGN LONG TERM LEASES on spaces where you can run your haunted attraction for years to come! DEALS GALORE PEOPLE ARE YOURS TO BE HAD!

Secondly... radio stations and marketing outlets have tried to rape people, they charge MORE today than what they did TEN YEARS ago when their radio stations where 40 times more effective... TRUE?

Now they suffer, even beer companies like AB cut back MILLIONS of dollars in marketing. In St. Louis AB cutback radio spending in our market by 50% I was told. Tons of car lots have gone out of business and leaving radio stations with a lot of DEAD AIR!

Now its your turn... RAPE THEM BACK, they are out there begging people to advertise. The people who pay the high rates like beer comapnies, home building outfits, or car lots have cut back leaving radio in turmoil.

They are doing right now what they've never done before...chasing down the small business owner and saying 'hey now maybe you can afford us, maybe we can make deals with you... '


Second read this article ...
http://www.goupstate.com/article/20090202/EXTERNALS/902020390/1051/NEWS01?Title=Carowinds_Sees_Spike_In_Job_Applicant s

I've already seen 50 of these amusement parks reporting record numbers of people looking for jobs. IN the past we have suffered trying to find enough staff and many times keeping people who don't deserve a job...now you will see people bang down YOUR doors looking for a job! That helps us!

People are discounting, and haunters are cheap, now is the time to buy, and load up and take advantage of the situation to put yourself in the spotlight, to take advantage of a guy down on his luck who needs to unload a building before they go bankrupt or whatever.

Lastly, in downturns like this people stay close to home and find local entertainment something people do NOT give up! People are ALIVE and want to have fun, just maybe not traveling to far away places. Your business will do well, and people will come to your haunts from 3 hours away looking for a cheap affordable get away because they missed that expensive vacation or cruise or whatever.

If you listen to doom and gloom you will fail. Now more than ever is time for you to spend and take advantage of the situation to secure your own long term future.

How many Circuit City locations will come up in the next month or two... hmmm let me guess 570 or so! WOW!

I'm sure they will make for good haunts or indoor FECs or whatever.

Those vendors who clam up and hide under a rock... let me sing you a song "Nah nah nah hey hey hey goodbye...'

Those haunts who think its time to tighten the belt let me say something to you... 'your haunt will be so scary no one would dare step inside, its like a GHOST TOWN'.

Halloween WILL NEVER suffer the problems of the auto industry, or the housing market, we are a one time a year holiday, meant to make people happy... WHO IS GIVING THAT UP? Halloween is a less than $100.00 per person holiday nearly everyone can afford it.

These are just fact... STOP THE DOOM AND GLOOM POSTS, STOP THE PANIC RIDDEN comments they are all bogus!

Halloween will do better than ever this coming year like it does every year for the past 20 years... because MORE PEOPLE CATCH THE BUG EVERY OCTOBER and it carries over to the following year.

HALLOWEEN ROCKS PERIOD... now if Halloween happened year around well then we'd be talking another story!


Jim Warfield
02-02-2009, 11:16 PM
"Greedy workers wanting more?"
How does this realistically happen when there are no labor unions?
How about the fact that over the last 8 years the richest people in this country all doubled their incomes, not their worth, their incomes! Where did this come from? Could this be considered "Greed"? (Maybe just dumb luck?) Just maybe?
Republicans cut taxes for the richest people in this country.
What do we need "Taxes" for? Maybe to provide education, health, protection, job training for the rest of the country who happen to be the people even the rich person has to still rely upon to make his world function up to speed.
Of course Mr. Filthy Rich won't need to pay his taxes to keep everyone and everything working (for his direct benefit) when he hires his private army to protect his mountaintop fortress where he will live.
Maintaining ownership and profitable control over one's propertys without the government paid police and army will get expensive though.
So utopia for Mr. F. Rich will see half the population (uneducated, unempolyed forever) in prison(Gunna need a whole lot of them prisons!) the other 1/3 living like cave men in totally ignored lawless lands where nobody with a dollar to their name would ever live, a toxic cesspool that no tax money was there to clean up because wealth is only supposed to flow one way, up to the guy who already owns everything worth owning.
He can just put a solid gold crown on his head and go insane having intimate relations with every, any person, animal or thing he so desires before the brain totally fries....implodes, rots.
Greed has the power to do very destructive things to the greedy too.

02-03-2009, 05:48 AM
I agree with you completely. Everything you posted seems true. And, just to add, guys (this is for everyone out there on HW), we know there's a recession going on. We've had way too many threads on the topic though. It does get slightly annoying when everyone posts the same thing, but using mildly different words. We know the rest of the economy is going to crap, but, like Larry said, that's perfect for us!

02-03-2009, 07:09 AM
Sounds great glad someone else is not thinking the worse all the time we get enough bad news...

About Circuit City though, forget about it! Around here it's between $20-$35 per square foot!!!! A 25sq/ ft Circuit City would cost you more than $60k a month!!!!


02-03-2009, 07:44 AM
^ That's if your wanting to lease a building! Here's a tip:

Go to the banks... see what commercial buildings they have forclosed on... most banks just want to break even on those buildings! So you could get an AWESOME building, BOUGHT, for a ridiculous price!

This is what we're doing... there are SEVERAL commercial buildings that are forclosed on here in Lexington, so we have several in mind that we want. Also, DON'T LEASE/RENT... BUY, BUY, BUY... if you can find a good building (forclosed)... make an offer... and BUY the building... that way, you have a perm. location... it's a tax write off... the bank broke even, everybody is happy! -Tyler

02-03-2009, 08:50 AM
That's some good tips because we are currently looking for a new bigger building this year. We thought we had something good lined up but the owner just kept upping the price on us for a 15,000 sq ft building. First it was one solid price now he wants a curtain % of our total sales plus a lot of money down with the solid price. I might have to check with the banks like you said Tyler.

02-03-2009, 09:09 AM
Warfield, you are on it!!

Others miss it sometimes.
"because of greedy workers wanting more money" !!! ??? wtf? from a very ambitious entrepreneur that can't empathize with the customers lined up at his haunt.

The original greed starts at the top. All those "greedy workers" trying to house, clothe, and feed their families are laid off because the third world countries offer the advantage of MORE $$ money $$, but it isn't for the greedy workers is it?

YES, we will be fine as local seasonal events because that is where people will spend their money. The big parks may have reported very small attendance increases, but they also reported small revenue drops because of steep discounts they ran all of 2008. This recession started in Dec 2007 and will go for a while more.

The advantage of being a buyer these days is in all types of markets/business and Larry is correct about that.

There is always a pie available for those who are ready to grab a piece of it!

Jim Warfield
02-03-2009, 10:57 AM
You might have to convince your patrons to pay more than $3.1416 for a haunt ticket though.

02-03-2009, 10:57 AM
Alot of what you said can be conveyed as positive for haunters I suppose but can you clarify one of your statments. Greedy workers is a pretty generalized statement. Are people greedy because standard of living rises so in order to live they need higher wages? Maybe in some industries workers are grossly overpaid but what percent of the total work force is that? And are they greedy because they are taking a bigger piece of your pie than you want them to? You are your own boss have you never been greedy and upped your salary? You didn't really define what you constitute as greed. Did greed get us where we are as a country today? I think it has overall but I believe the amount of greedy workers is a small percentage. This isn't an argument against your post so if you bother to read this don't respond like this is an attack.

Also I thought you didn't want us talk about the economy so why start another thread? Are we allowed to comment on this or are you in a matter or words going to call us idiots if we don't see things through rose colored glasses?

02-03-2009, 11:27 AM
For those of you looking at purchasing foreclosures, this is what I do for a living outside of haunting. Don't be afraid to offer that bank considerably less money than owed (even if it is worth what they owed). The foreclosures I am selling right now are taking an average hit of 15% off list price at "AS IS" values. Banks are asking to much for them in most markets and understand they are going to have to reduce to sell. When the banks get these back, their is ALWAYS something wrong with them (ie roof, frozen pipes, cosmetics, etc). Do your research and find out the outstanding mortgage but make them an offer considering the condition, location, and market condition in your local area. Don't forget, most of these loans have MI (mortgage insurance)on them and the bank will recover this money loss from them. (This is why they aren't always as cooperative as you think they should be.) So take advantage and make them an offer. What's the worst they can do? Say no. I would be more than happy to give advise on this topic if you have questions, send me a PM.

I handle forclosures for over 38 banks right now. And believe me, they aren't always as easy to purchase as you would think. Oh, and make sure you do your title work and know any restrictions or liens that might have been missed.

02-03-2009, 12:48 PM

I said GREED in general and yes GREEDY union, GREEDY banks, GREEDY CEO's trying to make an extra buck. When you hear about Jack N Box farming out drive through order takers to India well that has gone way over the top on GREED!

Yes Unions are greedy, they have pushed many companies right over to Mexico or right over to China or where ever. There is only so much an industry can pay and thats it and when you push to hard things start to fall apart. The whole entire textile industry GONE! Nearly the whole entire STEEL industry GONE, even though ALL THE RAW materials are from the US dug out of our ground, shipped over to Korea or where ever so they steel can be made and then SHIPPED back to the US. Somehow that is cheaper... all because of labor. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying someones work isn't worth what they feel its worth, because it is probably worth MORE but if a GREEDY CEO can't get what he wants out of the worker then he takes all the work somewhere else. Workers have work with owners, in fact I think laws should be written and congress should be more involved in fixing these problems so we can SAVE jobs! But workers will have to give some to get some! Sometimes Unions don't budge, won't move one inch, and well that drives CEO types to find cheaper alternatives which they do!

CEO's are greedy for cutting jobs to increase stock prices...that is GREED! Why not just lower wages across the board on EVERYONE and save the jobs? Same with the auto industry... SAVE ALL THE JOBS cut costs down for everyone and secure those jobs for 10 years! I think its better to have jobs than not have jobs...

But as a nation if you do this, you have to bring COST OF LIVING DOWN with it... I'm not saying you shoud live in the poor house, I'm saying the WHOLE ENTIRE nation must bring down cost of living, what a home cost, what a car costs, and it starts with what we pay workers. BRING IT ALL DOWN and then the US worker can compete with Mexico and China and we can save jobs.

I know we can never have the same wages as those nations but you must remember those countries must pay import fees there is shipping costs, delays in getting product, and other factors that raise their costs ... we can get this thing evened out but we must lower cost of living for EVERYONE and I'm not just talking about some union worker.

It will take EVERYONE accepting lower wages, and less corporate greed to fix this economy. Understand I'm for SAVING the American Workers jobs, I'm for finding ways to keep a work force in this country, make products in this nation. But it is give and take!

If we could just bring back 1/10 of the manufactor jobs to this country every American would have a job, have income! If people don't like what is being paid start your own business, find a new job, learn a new skill but at least we have jobs for workers who want them. I've studied this topic and it makes me sick the GREED on ALL parts! If I was a congress person trust me I would fix this problem and root out all corporate greed, but you must get the workers to go along too.

This is why I hate WALMART... when Sam Walton was alive their whole entire thing was BUY AMERICAN, now Walmart drives more jobs out of this country than they make in hiring stockers and cashiers. They FORCE pricing on supplies, dictate pricing and payment terms and force suppliers to find cheaper labor. Walmart should be investigated by congress!

Anyway that is off the topic...

At this point I think the point is you have a situations right now that you should take advantage of to secure your own future as a small business owner... why shouldn't you take advantage everyone else did when things where going good!


02-03-2009, 12:57 PM
Hey now Lindsay works at Walmart so be careful, LOL! No I agree with you they are terrible. Thank you for clarifying I understand what you were saying now.

I never disagreed that you should take advantage of what is out there now for small businesses. Personally I still have a bad taste in my mouth over what I paid for radio last year as well as building rent.

Mike Honcho
02-04-2009, 08:51 AM
There is a lot of useful info on this thread ESP for first time buyers such as myself

02-04-2009, 12:02 PM
Dictionary.com defines greed as:

1. excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves
2. reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins)

The workers of any country, not only this one, do what is dictated by the owners. Union or not. Period. The economics of supply and demand play into it more than anything else. Since the third world countries and supply distribution systems have changed to accomodate transportation of goods from these countries it has become a "race to the bottom". It doesn't matter if workers would work for free in this country in certain industries like textile, the outsourcing would still be done in the name of profits (read GREED).

Walmart has been on many news shows and one I watched recently reported the conditions in the asian countries that most of the clothes walmart sells. The comment was that walmart had driven the labor cost out of the cost of producing the products. Because it was an insignificant part of the cost formula now with what they were paying workers at the outsourced companies. NO industrialized nation (read decent modern lving conditions) can compete with that. NONE.

Sam Walton is probably rolling in his grave because of the turn that company has taken. They drove Rubbermaid out of business i the U.S. and many other companies that made the fatal mistake of thinking they could make money and reduce their price to walmart every year until they were out of business.

The kids today don't have much of a fighting chance of finding decnet jobs until the playing field is leveled out as far trade agreements. This includes making our trading partners live by some basic environmental rules regarding air, land, and water pollution as well as basic human rights regarding safety and labor that American companies have to follow. When there are no pollution rules in Mexico, it disadvantages our companies. When the safety of workers is non-existant in China, the cost is obviously going to be less irregardless of the wages involved.

He who owns the gold (or toys) makes the rules. The idea of a decent price, decent profit, and decent wage needs to come back or all of us will lose in the "race to the bottom'.

There are still many companies in this country that make good money and pay their employees decent salaries. Despite the all American dream of owning your own business, the reality is that most people do not have the skills or ambition to try to find the opportunity to do it.

The culture in America these days is that having a college degree affords a much better chance of having a decent paying job along with better overall employment. I have an electrician journeyman card and have been able to make good money, but I see the value in a degree. I am closing in on a thirty year dream to get one, my wife has an associates, bachelor, and MBA. My two older kids have degrees. My three little ones will be encouraged to get their degrees. The cost of education has continued to climb making getting a degree tougher than ever, but definitely worth it.

So, if you believe everyone should take less, WHO is going to be first? This includes prices as well as wages.

02-04-2009, 01:20 PM
Excellent post! I wounder if some of these guys that wants the compaies to give their sfuff away and cut their employees salaries will be doing the same? Will you yell at vendors at TransWorld to cut their prices? Will you cut the salaries of your haunt employees? Will you charge less than your regular ticket price ( I know some who is charging 3 times more). Will you build a haunt for someone and cut your own salarie?|

Dont yell at about it! Stand up and do it and show your doing it just dont say it. I have 17 mall contracts and I can tell you malls are having it bad. They are paying for all the upkeep and updates and everyday things involved. They are taking hits just like everyone else. I for one will not insult them by saying attendance is down and traffic flow is slow so will you cut me a killer deal when you have already helped put my company on the map? Hell no I will take the hit myself and wait out the storm. This will only cause my company portfoilo to grow. Why? Because I was not a blood sucking leach! Also I did not take advantage of an already bad economy. Shane and its yeah go ahead and be greedy it will bite you in the ass later down the road. What comes around goes around and Karma is a B*^$h Shane this time!

02-04-2009, 01:27 PM
Walmart is the single biggest enemy of the American economy for sure! I know all sorts of people who tell you Walmart dictates prices otherwise they don't buy and this forces companies to figure out how to meet those costs, and it starts with shutting down the plant and moving it to Mexico and Walmart goes to bed at night sleeping just fine!

Walmart when they really got cooking was all about BUY AMERICAN, now is buy the cheapest while they put other companies out of business, grocery stores, and whomever else gets in their way.

People shouldn't buy at Walmart simple as that.


02-04-2009, 01:33 PM

Tell people who have a shrinking pay check, having to scrap for every penny to NOT buy Wal-Mart... the cheapest place to buy anything! It's not going to happen! I have SEVERAL family members that work for Sams Club and Wal-Mart... they BUST their asses... make little money... yet LOVE their jobs! Explain that? -Tyler

Mike Honcho
02-04-2009, 02:12 PM
you cant beat wal-marts prices on food either they are usually a dollar or 2 cheaper then most

02-04-2009, 02:20 PM
Walmart is the single biggest enemy of the American economy for sure! I know all sorts of people who tell you Walmart dictates prices otherwise they don't buy and this forces companies to figure out how to meet those costs, and it starts with shutting down the plant and moving it to Mexico and Walmart goes to bed at night sleeping just fine!

Walmart when they really got cooking was all about BUY AMERICAN, now is buy the cheapest while they put other companies out of business, grocery stores, and whomever else gets in their way.

People shouldn't buy at Walmart simple as that.


You are correct, Wal-mart does tell vendors what they will or won't pay for it, and if they don't like it they tell them to hit the road.

02-04-2009, 02:25 PM
^ That's just like the food industry and a resteraunt finding a food provider! If a Chef (Executive Chef/Chef De'Cuisine) doesn't like a product of the price, tell the vendor to hit the road... we learned that our first month in culinary school! -Tyler

02-04-2009, 02:41 PM
Funny everyone saying they are the cheapest... hard to complain about broken animations, or products that barely work when we as buyers set the prices, which we do. Our industry is unwilling 99% of the time to pay what something might actually be worth, or pay more to allow the company to improve the product.

As for Walmart... well don't want to hear any crying about people losing jobs. We shop walmart and we empower them with our support and our money so they can run toy companies out of business, force people who work making a good living to lose their jobs because of WALMART demanding cheaper prices. NOTHING BUT GREED on all of our parts.

We have to stand up and fight for our fellow American workers and support what it takes to keep them going... shopping at Walmart yep they are the cheapest and FYI in case you didn't know the SINGLE BIGGEST buyer from CHINA!

So throw that in your shopping cart!


02-04-2009, 02:52 PM
China? Not this again... well, I can say this... since China is about to stop buying up our debt, at least we can claim that we've been supporting THEIR economy!! I mean, what do you think will happen once China calls our debt? There is NO CHANCE IN HELL we're able to pay that back! Hmmm.... -Tyler

02-04-2009, 03:13 PM
Screw China, screw Walmart and screw at that babbaling about greed. Its not a recession. There is no ECONOMIC CRISIS. This is an economy. This is the same thing as nature. Nature has STORMS. We can't do anything about it except wait for the storm to clear. Storm starts because of an imbalance. So a recession, if you want to call it that, was started because of an imbalance. The only way to fix it is for the imbalance to be corrected. Dumping printed money at it isn't gonna fix SH%T. Dividing our own industry with a stupid F$#%ING thread is gonna fix SH*T. You guys need to stop disagreeing with eachother and start working together. Believe me helping your competitor isn't gonna put you out of business.
This whole recession is just a hurricane. How do you prepare for a hurricane? You don't thats the answer because noone knows exactly when one is gonna happen. But you can antisipate one by having treated windows, having a shed full of sand bags so on and so on.
So how to do you antisipate a "recession." You save your personal money and save. Not as a business owner. You should always spend intellegently. The only reason "times are tough" is because the wealthiest business execs don't want to have to tighten their belts so they create that illusion. Then that infects the politicians who represent us then we hear about and now all of a sudden the economy goes down in flames. Thats will never change BUT. You what has to change is thinking we can stop it. Japan had the same problem i think in the 50s and 60s. They had a "recession" and started pumping money into their economy just like Obama wants to do. Their "recession" lasted 10 years. 10 YEARS!!!!! Until they finally gave up and let it run its course.
All of this talk about Vendors setting the price or Buyers setting the price is BS. They teach you that lie in economics but is BS. The prices are set by the owner of the business. Thats it. then after that its trial and error to rais or lower as much or as little as possible to see how much someone can get away with. Halloween vendors do it to. I did a little experiment. I started a "fake blueprint website." I told everyone some other guy set it up and I set the prices rediculously low, but reasonable in an hourly wage sense. Everyone on the thread said it was crap because the prices were so low. I guess in this Industry if you want to be considered legit you gotta charge the crap out of your customers.

02-04-2009, 03:17 PM

That website was yours? Why? The floorplans weren't even real haunt floorplans... NO haunt would be set-up like that! Lots of explaining to do son! -Tyler

02-04-2009, 03:39 PM
^ That's just like the food industry and a resteraunt finding a food provider! If a Chef (Executive Chef/Chef De'Cuisine) doesn't like a product of the price, tell the vendor to hit the road... we learned that our first month in culinary school! -Tyler

Comparing A chef to Wal-mart?

Jim Warfield
02-04-2009, 03:47 PM
Anyone see the show where two VERY wealthy men gave a speech to some college kids, the speech was not recorded as per their wishes, except as a news blurb.
Someone asked them about their income taxes?
Both men said because they are so rich that with tax lawyers, accountants, loop holes, excetra that they would not have to pay any taxes..but they do because they personally did not feel that this would be "Right"!
Both of these men came from middle class backrounds, maybe this is why they think about the problems of the common man?
As long as the televisions keep working and people can find their beer money, some people will never get off the couch.
I believe that most people do want to work, succeed and have some pride in their accomplishments..

02-04-2009, 04:18 PM
I wasn't going to get involved but.....

The chinese government didn't make "loans" to us and the chinese government doesn't "own" our debt. That's not how we, as the U.S., accumulate "debt". China (through individuals, corporations, businesses, and the government) has purchased U.S. bonds people! It's not a single loan to an individual country! There is no scenario where "China" could "call in" our debt. It's not even possible....and please keep in mind, the government is the only entity that can't bankrupt.

02-04-2009, 06:05 PM
Please! Lmao and they call me Mr. Dabbs!

02-04-2009, 06:56 PM
When my wife needed a job guess who hired her? Walmart. She gets paid pretty well and she gets treated pretty well. I understand Walmart is probably pretty terrible but unfortunately around here jobs are pretty scarce. Our pizza places aren't packed full of customers on Fridays, in fact they are closing down. Our theaters aren't packed with people trying to "escape" in fact some of them closed down as well. We have lost large businesses as well as a ton of small businesses. Larry I read your posts about how upset you are that some place you wanted to put a FEC was so packed it made you sick to your stomach. Man that is a problem I wish we had around here. You know what makes me sick to my stomach? Seeing all the empty businesses around here, talking to all of the people who now have nothing because the economy is so bad now(mostly because the big 3 seem to be incompetant), seeing all of my favorite places close down and that includes fun escape type places such as putt-putt, gyms, book stores, and comic shops in addition to restaurants and retail stores and suppliers. I will be the first to say that our state makes unbelievable mistakes but I am not going to get into that. I am not jealous or angry that things seem to be doing well by you. I am happy because in a way it still gives hope that things can be good. I firmly believe our state's struggles is our own fault. No one elses. But you know what? People around here always believed that the big 3 would be our meal ticket, that the union would always take care of our workers and things would always thrive. That is our fault. We put all of our eggs in one basket and we are paying for it now.

But what you have to understand is when say things like "if you are worried about the economy affecting your haunt then you need to get out of the industry and work at 7-11 or something" you sound ridiculous because around here the 7-11's aren't hiring they are closing down. That is how the economy is around here. And as far as Walmart as long as it is one of the only places around here that is hiring and keeping employees, my wife will work there and we will buy stuff there. I believe everything you say about them but we also have kids to feed and a mortgage to pay. So I will have to put that into my cart.

I don't think we should have bailed out anyone, I never got in over my head in debt, and I have never asked anyone for anything. But that doesn't mean the condition of the country doesn't worry me and I certainly don't look down on anyone that is also worried.

If this industry is the type of industry that thinks it is invulnerable like the auto industry did and it thinks you are an idiot and dirt for worrying about the economy around you then you are probably right, I should get out of it now. But I will tell you now I would be a much happier man if my friends, family, and neighbors were a little less scared right now. Even if it meant I had to give up my little haunt.

02-04-2009, 07:04 PM
Well you have to understand they are not eating, paying their house payment, putting clothes on their kids backs. Why you might ask? So they will have money to go to the movies on the weekends and haunted houses in October? Recession Proof My Azz. Shane and its still Mr. Dabbs. This time!

02-04-2009, 07:45 PM
Times are getting bad..Jared is right because I live in Michigan too. Places around here are closing down and it's getting sad. Even gas stations are boarding up. I myself was just told last friday that come July 1st I might be out of a job. I had plans of buying my first home this summer and getting married in the fall but things are put on hold now.

02-04-2009, 07:50 PM
Dude that sucks. Get out of there now. Go to nevada or something. Its cheap to live there.