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I might make just one neat thing and put fire retardant in its paintjob just to prove its possible lol.
So buy NYFS and spray it on everything and give him the certificate? If you know it's safe and you did your job and he isn't gonna come flame test, consider yourself safe...?
Paint additives work in clear coats too! Instead of repaint, add an acrylic sealer with the stuff disolved in it. But despite the directions people are just hosing things down with a bug sprayer. All of these props have some kind of garment or burlap that is the more obvious thing to catch fire or be vandalized. Under no circumstances should you have tires inside the haunt. Tires with an accelerant are the number one choice by arsons. Just scratch those off the list.
Little tid bits like things are not going to be stored there and gasolines for chainsaws, paint seconds and thinners are stored off site or away from the main building and have nothing to do with the operation of the haunt.
This stuff does work. There is a large dragon outside a well known haunt that blows fire out it's mouth and the wind whips the fire back on it and it's building that is in a pond. It requires regular re dousing but never catches fire.
The actual product is probably something like salt that when heated blows off little amounts of itself and so there is no one source for igniting a homogenious material. Eventually this effect wears off and things do catch fire. Everything is how long do you have to go in and get people and get back out if there was an involved structure fire.
But, yes You are in New Jersey. We have gotten lots of things by as the standard for this county from the stance that what they are asking for just doesn't happen anywhere reguardless of which section of the book they are looking in applies to an industrial environment. Is there plastic at your local restaurants, at the movie theater, on store shelves somewhere in a 50 mile radius from your location? Yes, danger is everwhere. The fire detection systems and sprinklers and control modules are supposed to protect if something goes into unexplained spontaneous combustion.
If you are trying to not have all those systems, the answer is clear coat. You would be better to have a sales rep for the fire sheild product do his job for you. You can smear vaseline on everything and it is tough to catch fire even with a torch and everyone that tries to grap it gets slimed and the prop stays there. There are more solutions than buying things off of shelves with only the limited instructions on the can. You have to be kinda smart and let smart people used to dealing with your area involved.
I first learned about what was possible to buy at the independent paint store and then discovered the fire shield in quantities is cheaper. So maybe you have to buy what has a sales force willing to deal with your area copy all the literature that has a guarentee and tested New Jersey specific certificate.
What is usually comes down to is limiting occupancy to the building no matter how big the place is. Suggesting there is going to be 4,000 people in there in a conga line is not what they want to hear. They want to hear at any given time no more than 50 actors and customers will need to evacuate in so many minutes per so many square foot.
You can't expect the fire marshal to sign off on things he really isn't an engineer to approve. So you get the product sales force and technical dudes to be your pro authority on the subject and there is nothing better than that. It isn't you talking to who knows who on the internet and they said this or that. We are not professional engineers or if we are are not licenced in the state of New Jersey. A professional engineer can be a technical witness on court and this is the standings they are looking for in the states that are more regulation prone.
I'm guessing that is why 12 ounces of salt costs $8.
We have heard of a lot of people that are stand up guys in their communities that never opened because they approached it all the wrong way. It is a negotiation, not a quick fix, it is the fire marshal understanding that you understand more than anything. Or the answer is you aren't opening in that county sorry. Or you don't put those stupid expensive unapproved props in there at all and just have set design and actors. Until you figure out what gel to smear on them, they might as well be a stack of tires stored in an unapproved setting. And probably the only stuff approved for New Jersey is made in New Jersey.
Some of the shows that move around the country are pretty lame and have no props at all in them just for this reason, not because they intentionally wanted to suck. So you move up with metal props, concrete props and lots of actors.
God I love all the shit that just buying stuff creates.
In a large Vegas hotel I had to put a fire extinguisher within a foot of my giants. I sprayed everything with fire retardant and the items I painted I mixed it in. I left the jugs and empty bottles all over the place and the Fire Marshall said "nice" > I used to use fire retardant foam when I built props but found it an unnecessary expense. I would only personally ad retardant to latex or use fire retardant foam on request and obviously for a small fee. I have been on the build side for a few years and it has never been requested.
As for latex (non costume masks) I have always used the all purpose spray on fire retardant and never had a problem. as for costumes I have never heard of anyone doing it but I can imagine it being a major skin irritant !!! I always said the most flammable thing in a haunt is the customer maybe we should hose them !!!
Random thought here ~
What about this.. its a bit of work .. for latex props that are pre painted.. (which would obviously include all props, animatronics, etc)
Rough up the surface ... and break the "latex barrier" of the prop. Without destroying the integrity of the item. Either with sand paper or a Dremel tool.
Then spray the item with fire proofing.... Would that not work ???? Would the FR not get deep enough ??
Obviously .. adding a FR to the paint or latex would be the best option and less labor intensive.. but just a thought.
~LoneWolf
A surprising number of costumes and items are already fire resistant or flame retardent from the manufacturers but no one is sending out their papers because, it isn't Hogan's Heros yet in most states. The whole soaking into things might apply if the stuff is being used as a fire sheild primer whereas the paint might peel off in high heat and then the primer foams up a bit, swells and becomes an insulator for the building materials. Final coating does the same thing. Maybe if it isn't in some kind of medium it would swell up and fall off. The active ingredient is Ammonia Phosphate, so it is like deluting salt and that certainly leaves a residue on things, or laundry soap certainly if not rinsed off leaves a film.
Somebody put on a mask and run through a fire.
Or he's a haunt virgin, thinks his reputation is on the line, and has no idea what he is dealing with.Quote:
Originally Posted by pickle
C.
Pickle,
I want to be clear on something in some of your posts you make it sound like vendors should FR their Latex and foam when they make the prop. The reason they do not is because this is odd. I have never in 25 years of haunting had a fire marshal request this, talking to my wife who is a fire marshal (just got her 20yr pin) she has never heard of this either.
It is not a flaw in the vendors that they dont fireproof, it is a flaw in the process you are being asked to go through. When in doubt, talk to the Marshal. Call him today and ask him how he would Flame retard a plastic garbage can that already exists. His answer will be the way you need to flame retard all your props.
What is being asked for is way over the top, it is akin to a food inspector asking every item a restaurant serves to be in a hot dog casing, at some point industry standard should be considered, unless the standards are unsafe. Your fire Marshal has a Lieutenant or a Chief that you can also meet with. Always ask for help as opposed to saying it is unreasonable, because people get defensive easily. There may be something they cant say unless you ask the right question.
Good luck,
Allen H
I have been doing this for over 10 years now in different parts of the country.
I have had very strict fire marshalls .
Just mix fire protectant into clear coat and spray your latex creatures.
Send your sample for your certifacate.
I have had burn tests on everything including a real tree/plant rainforest without a concern passing the burn test.
Darksidestew
C,
I think you hit the nail on the head...he is a haunt virgin & couple years from retirement! Wants no blemishes on his record! LOL Can't blame him I guess, he's never run into this before.
Lonewolf,
I think your idea might work on things I need to get into and penetrate by "breaking the outer membrane". Hope I don't need to IMO it's a lot of additional unnecessary work. But thanks for that tip.
Zombie,
LMAO, I told my F/M that exact same thing! The customers ARE the most flammable, should I stand @ the tix booth & hose 'em down w/ FireShield? LOL
Tongue,
Maybe an additional fire extinguisher near the larger props will appease him? I'll probably do like scream f.a.d said and just spray the shit out of everything & hope for the best. Don't get me wrong...I've budgeted plenty in for fire protection, have all the other top of the line suppression stuff in order so I'm not trying to get cheap...trying to be efficient so when final inspections come, I sail thru! Don't need any last minute surprises!
Greg,
I know you hate anything that has to do with buying props...but believe me, we have a great mix of store bought items & things I've personally designed & built in my fab shop. This question pertained to ALL props, not just ALL the "bought" props. I run this entire 30,000' venue by myself...I'm the general contractor, fabrication guy, designer, planner, purchaser, marketing dept., etc, (I admit I'm a little bit of a control freak & need to learn to "let go a bit") but I don't often rely on others to find solutions to problems (oh yeah, I'm the problem solver too! lol). I am no stranger to fire codes (or to the inspectors) I've had to work with both for more than 22 years. In my building biz there is a constant (& never ending) changes to the codes that I've learned to deal with & adapt to. However, my main question here was being that this F/M is obviously nervous (& him & I do get along, he knows I'm an exp. builder/GC, & he knows I don't cut corners or look for the ez way out) that what would be the best way to attack his main concern (latex props) I think he thinks of them as tires! LOL And he has been involved with some horrendous tire fires in the past! I guess the main thing that surprised me in this industry about this subject was this issue regarding F/R latex props since nearly EVERY vendor (& yes Greg, I'm going to include nearly every home haunter/prop builder;)) utilizes latex today but I can't seem to dig up concrete info on this subject...just surprised me!:eek: I guess because over the years of the building biz when a concern arose their was always somebody or something that could answer the ? with authority. And with these multi-million dollar theme parks utilizing the same latex we all know & love that surely this subject has been brought up before...did not think I'd have to dig so deep to look for clues...FOR MY F/M!!! Well I guess since there seems to be no 100% cure I'll move all my stock options over to FIRESHIELD before I purchase a tractor trailer load of this shit! LMAO!
PS: Be forewarned, any of you who make it to Jersey (near Atlantic City) and stop by my haunt...you ARE getting heavily hosed down with F/R upon entering the building!;)
Thanks to all that replied for your time & help...I do appreciate your efforts!:)
P.