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  • #16
    Some of the criteria for a varience that I was talking about does require you to make sure that no matter where you are at in the building, you have to be with in 50 feet of an emergency exit. The exit must have an exit sign with battery back up lighting. So, is it reckless and irresponsable to not have a sprinkler system when at any given time the customers are 50' away from an exit? Keep in mind that everything in the haunt is flame retardant, and there is a fire alarm that will turn off all effects, and music, and then make an announcement to evacuate the building, before they begin their journey of 50 feet. In my opinion this is far safer than some of the haunts that I have been to that have sprinkler systems and hardly any exits, at least from what I can see. Sprinkler systems are a mechanical device and can fail. I also think that in a panic, customers could stampede trying to find these illusive exits.

    I am confident that the inspector and official having jurisdiction are competant enough to determine if a haunt is safe. In fact, I think that they go over board. I also don't believe that the hall monitors of Hauntworld can make a better determination on an attraction that they haven't seen.

    Seriously, us small town folk have it covered.
    www.haroldshaunt.com

    Comment


    • #17
      Interesting comments

      The fact that there are so many different haunts in so many different size markets predicates the answers written here by all. For those in the BIG markets that are able to get the highest numbers and profits, take into consideration briefly that if you were under the same conditions as a haunt in smaller markets, your comments would be much different. I wonder, Larry, if the Lemp Brewery tunnels have sprinklers? If you have to put them in, you would have to sprinkle the whole tunnel system on all levels.

      The Indiana Fire Marshal office was put into the Homeland Security Department and has always had the safety of the public in mind while treating the haunt owners and operators like fish oil salemen passing through. We have been in contact many years way in advance of opening requesting to see an inspector only to have them show up the day before we open. Sometimes after. The haunts that passed were also dismayed to find out that haunts were allowed to open despite not passing inspection because the law says that the haunt has 30 days to fix the issue and get to stay open through the season anyway. The last two years I applied in February because of the two weekends in March we were open for Ghouls Gone Wild. They came the alst day of September despite the fact that I called the state office in Indianapolis and wanted to make sure they knew I would be open in March and October. The permit is good for the calendar year and if the floor plan isn't changed, then the permit is good. I even talked to the City inspector to make sure he would do a walk through in September without the state in case the state came in March.

      The industry has changed since I started with the Jaycees in 1986. Many professional haunts, especially in the bigger cities, have been opened. There have been conventions, trade shows, associations, vendors, and safety manuals as an outgrowth of the change to professional haunts. The old style of black plastic and boo scare volunteers in masks has been transformed into awesome scenes, great actors, and makeup that is sometimes used in modern horror movies. One thing that hasn't kept up is most of the props sold by many vendors at the shows in respect to the flame retardant aspect of foam used in them because of the cost. This needs to become the standard.

      The fact that many buildings are without sprinklers for fire safety but doesn't preclude that they can't be operated safely as a haunt. I agree that there are people out there that are putting people at more risk than is acceptable and using materials and practices that are a liability not only to themselves and their customers, but the whole industry.

      If you look at the fire in Rhode Island and the changes each state took to restrict haunted houses as a result, it is a lot. I know the season after that tragedy our state inspector must have said "Rhode Island" many, many times. In 2010 at Transworld at one of the seminars on pyrotechnics put on by the guys from New Orleans, it was one of them that said had their been ONE person on fire watch backstage with a fire extinguisher, he felt the whole thing could have been avoided despite the fact taht the whole club had been lined with foam on the walls and ceiling. In the Six Flags Haunted Mansion fire in 1984 killed eight teenagers. It was "a conglomeration of trailers with a grotespue and scary facade." It had no spinklers, but is also had no fire alarms or smoke detectors and none of the exit lights had working bulbs, either. There were many other factors that contributed to the fire spreading like untreated plywood and foam props. There was also a long distance between exits, 450 feet of hall paths actually. Finally, the 1973 fire in a haunt set up in a school killed one person that a PTA was doing started on fire 30 minutes prior to opening. The walls were made of wood frames with flannel cloth as the walls. The flannel was sprayed with black lacquer based paint.

      My point in the recap is that the public safety officials of every state have put into place many regulations that if any of those places had used, there may not have been any tragedies. The safety rules that we operate under could be made even better. Sprinklers do have the potential to save lives and property. If they were mandated into every business rather than just haunted houses (and fireworks sales in Indiana recently) it would put many businesses into situations not affordable and building owners left with buildings that would have to be torn down.

      The fact is that the haunt operators need to stop shying away from dialogue with the state fire inspectors and rule makers. My contact with several other haunt owners in Indiana recently has not been to try to sidestep safety, but to try to get something that is workable for all. I have started to put together a proposal that will be reviewed by the other Indiana haunt owners and then we will set a meeting up with the Indiana Fire Marshal. This proposal would suggest reformatting the permitting process. It would suggest certified operators be required for each application to be approved. The annual certification would include training in a classroom. Class would include: fire safety, emergency procedures, fire code, allowed materials, non-compliant materials, fire alarm systems, sprinkler rules, haunted house codes and rules, fire retardant usage and requirements. A passing grade of a test would finalize the class. The other proposals would add to the existing requirements of a submitted floor plan. This would include a comprehensive safety manual each haunt would have to have in three places, evacuation drills mandatory weekly, and other rules similar to what is in place in many states: fire alarm with evacuation annunciation, autodialer, house light on relay, props off relay, and air solenoids to turn off all air supply and resevoirs.

      The enforcement would have to have the power to prevent a haunt from operating for major issues. The haunts that operate under the radar are actually the ones that will cause the industry problems, not the ones that comply. We had one in Ft Wayne operated by the office of one of our US Senators that I doubt had a permit or inspection.

      The goal is to operate as safely as possible with zero incidents.
      .
      .
      .
      Brett Molitor (aka ~ JamBam) Member of HAA

      Haunted Hotel-13th Floor (est by Huntington Jaycees in 1968 8) )
      Longest running Haunted House in the WORLD!!

      Hysterium Haunted Asylum (old Haunted Cave), Fort Wayne Indiana

      Hysterium Escapes - 4 rooms with 3 themes


      www.HauntedHuntington.com

      www.facebook.com/hauntedhotel

      www.Hysterium.com

      www.facebook.com/HysteriumFtWayne

      www.hysteriumescapes.com

      www.facebook.com/hysteriumescapes


      sigpic

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      • #18
        "Obsolete Buildings"

        Are numerous around here, a whole deserted college campus of them.
        Most were build around 1924-30, concrete, brick, slate roofs, built to "last".
        The cost of insulation, thermo pane windows and everything else they would now need is totally cost-prohibitive especially since nobody can come up with a use for them.
        Destroy all that very solid work? Sad and abit stupid too.
        I am assuming this nation is covered with such propertys as of now.
        hauntedravensgrin.com

        Comment


        • #19
          Brett,

          Couple things...

          1) Lemp: Has a sprinkler system thanks for asking. If it didn't have a sprinkler system that passes an annual test our haunt would NOT open period end of story. In addition that that the entire place is damp, and made out of solid stone everywhere... the only things that might burn are what we install in there. The place has a fire ext everywhere. The attraction has sprinkler systems, fire alarms, and all sorts of other features including all wood was painted with a fire proof paint not to mention we've drenched the place in about 100 gallons of fire retard. So again thanks for asking.

          2) I think the whole conversation is a great one its not an arguement its just a discussion... I think your glee in this fact was misplaced and I think most haunters would agree with me on this. If I'm you running a haunt for charity I dont' want to spend $50k on a sprinkler system, so maybe I'm happy and full of glee myself... I don't deny that.

          But lets be honest, your inspector is WRONG end of story! I could care less what his background is... he's wrong and he's setting your haunt, his office, the city and maybe the state and well the whole entire haunt industry up for disaster. The city will be sued for SURE for allowing what boca codes which I think your state follows clearly states that you must have one... so he's flying in the face of the codes your state follows. So good for you someone is letting you fly without following the rules but I think its wrong.

          Its a mistake.

          3) To state again... I think tent shows should be allowed to roll without them if they design them with exits every 50 feet lets say. With a tent show you can design in as many exits as you want... as a fire fighter lets be honest they aren't worried about your haunt burning down as long as no one gets hurt, as an owners I care more about no one getting hurt, and secondly I hope the fire is contained and put out... a sprinkler system helps acheive these goals.

          4) Lastly... let me say if your building is indoors I'd like to know how many exits you have. I doubt more than 2 or 3 and depending on how your maze is designed you might not be making best use of them... a fire breaks out people are rats in a maze with no hope of that sprinkler system kicking in and helping contain the fire. This is not something to be cheering about. But again I understand why you would.

          Larry
          Larry Kirchner
          President
          www.HalloweenProductions.com
          www.BlacklightAttractions.com
          www.HauntedHouseSupplies.com
          www.HauntedHouseMagazine.com

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by annarchy View Post
            No offense, but this is not good news. All it takes (God-forbiddin) is an accident that involves fire and no fire suppression and the media will run with this. In turn, it will only draw more attention (overkill, that is) and all fire marshals across the country will dissect us even more. Although I sympathize with the enormous cost you would incurr, I hardly think that posting something like this is a 'gratifying' moment to the industry as a whole. I mean no disrespect...
            I agree, how is not having to have a sprinkler system good news and why are the rest of you congratulating him for it? I am a small show and when I first opened up I searched for miles to find a building that had a sprinkler system. I agree that not all of the laws we have to follow are necessary (even though we do follow them) but a sprinkler system should be a no brainer.
            Jared Layman

            Comment


            • #21
              discussion

              Larry,
              Your fortunate that the lemp tunnels has sprinklers and alarms. The stuff you install is what will burn in a disaster and the smoke is what is deadly.

              Don't get me worng here, I do believe that sprinklers are the most effective for putting out fires. In most fires, though, the smoke detectors and fire alarm will provide much earlier detection of any fire. We already have smoke detectors that are all wired together throughout the event. If one goes off, they all alarm. They are tested by the state inspector every year to make sure they do work. I am confident that we could evacuate everyone out of the whole haunt in 30-45 seconds.

              If you read the first thread you will find that it is the whole state of Indiana that this was mentioned about. Our city inspector usually is with the state inspector and lets the state rules be the authority. I did talk to the city inspector when I was preparing the variance application and he was willing to write a letter of support for the variance. The Indiana Fire Marshal is the authority here. He has more training than you or I and is the authority for the WHOLE state.

              If you also read my last thread you will find that there are some plans to continue to step up what we do already and more.

              The fact that I am happy that our haunt and others in Indiana may continue to operate is genuine for the point of being able to stay in business. I am sure you are happy when you are able to avoid such things or not have to spend a lot of money on something. Don't mistake that in any case that I am not concerned for the safety of my staff or customers.
              .
              .
              .
              Brett Molitor (aka ~ JamBam) Member of HAA

              Haunted Hotel-13th Floor (est by Huntington Jaycees in 1968 8) )
              Longest running Haunted House in the WORLD!!

              Hysterium Haunted Asylum (old Haunted Cave), Fort Wayne Indiana

              Hysterium Escapes - 4 rooms with 3 themes


              www.HauntedHuntington.com

              www.facebook.com/hauntedhotel

              www.Hysterium.com

              www.facebook.com/HysteriumFtWayne

              www.hysteriumescapes.com

              www.facebook.com/hysteriumescapes


              sigpic

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              • #22
                Thanks

                Thank you Larry and thank you Mindtumor.
                In my humble opinion, this would be a great "rule" or "bylaw" (for lack of better words) that an Association within the haunted attraction industry should set forth.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I, like many others, am in a similar situation as Brett. My area of the country does not have a large enough population to support a super expensive Haunted house. The nearest town is 10 miles away with a population of 30,000. This is a very blue collar community that has fallen on hard times. There is no way that anyone would pay the ticket prices that you find in the large cities. I believe that I could move my show to a larger populated area and probably make a much more prosperous life for myself. The fact is, I am living my version of the American dream. I live on a farm, in a community that I love. I can look out of my kitchen window and see deer, turkey, fox, coyote, and sometimes large birds of prey. My daughter can play outside without fear of perverts and gangs. She can ride her ATV anytime she likes. (Yes, Hall monitors, I make her wear a helmet!) On a side note, I think that there is a greater chance of someone being killed by a gang member in the parking lot of the Darkness, than there is a chance of someone being killed in my haunted house.
                  I cannot and will not live in, or commute to a large city.

                  The second aspect of this dilemna is that country people like haunted houses too. Why should they have to drive for hours to attend a haunted house. I believe that by the time October rolls around, gas will exceed $5 per gallon.
                  So why do we cheer for Bretts victory? It buys him time. It reassures a States right to make it's own decisions.

                  Many of the people on Hauntworld remind me of a mother jumping on the chance to judge another mother, based on her parenting skills. I think that everyone has their own idea of what is acceptable, and anyone who does not fit into their idea of right and wrong is inferior, and it makes them feel empowered to judge.

                  I seriously doubt that many of the largest haunts in America started with a sprinkler system. So what are you guys saying? Are you saying that there was a narrow window to get into the Haunted House business, and if you haven't built up your show to the point that you can afford a sprinkler system that's just too bad, you missed your window? If that is what you mean, please say so. It will clarify the whole conversation.

                  I have no problem, whatsoever, with there being a rule or bylaw that you must have a sprinkler system to be a member of an organization. I have no problem with the existance of haunted organizations as long as they don't represent themselves as speaking on the behalf of all haunted house owners. I speak on my own behalf.

                  Larry has said that he doesn't think that all haunted houses need a sprinkler system. On this, we agree. I do believe more clarification is needed.

                  Let's analyze my show, I will be the guinea pig.

                  My largest haunted house is 4800 square feet. There are 7 emergency exits. The longest distance from any given point to an exit is 42 feet. My occupancy allowed by the great State of Ohio is 35 people at any given time, this does include actors. There are 8 10 pound abc fire extinguishers and a fire watch. The fire watch (who I pay to be there) is a member of the volunteer fire dept. that is stationed 2.5 miles away, he is also a certified inspector, a certified fire alarm installer, and an EMT.
                  There is a 3 acre pond on the premises. Every 3 years the entire maze is treated with flame retardant chemicals. There is enough emergancy lighting that one could easily read a book anywhere in the building. (I know for a fact that this can't be said about the mega haunts that I have toured during a so called lights on tour) The fire alarm automatically shuts off all effects and makes an announcement to get the hell out. My staff is trained to clear the building on their way out and to not allow any one but myself back into the building until I and I alone have called all clear. If the alarm goes off, I make a final sweep of the entire building.

                  My building official, my fire chief, my state fire marshal and my insurance agent (which happens to be my fire chief, small town....) are all comfortable with our operation.

                  I would like to again make the point that local officials are more than competant to enforce existing law and a zero tolerance policy concerning sprinkler systems is not needed and an abomination to freedom and common sense.
                  www.haroldshaunt.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Whether you are small or not, I'm surprised people would be so happy this. I would not do a haunt before I would do one in non sprinkled building. I was dirt poor when I started out and still managed to meet this requirement. But if you are allowed not too, whatever. But don't try and tell us all being small makes it too tough to do this. Difficult yeah, but completely possible.
                    Jared Layman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      When I built this haunted house, the law stated that haunted houses had to have sprinklers. The law also allowed for a varience on the sprinkler system If #1 the total square footage was less than 5000 square feet. #2 there was an emergency exit within 50 feet no matter where you were at. #3 You have to be able to get a fire truck to the building on all four sides. #4 the official having jurisdiction and the local fire chief both have to agree to it.

                      I believe that the law has since been changed to include buildings up to 10,000 square feet.

                      I would also like to point out that in Ohio, they do not allow you to use multiple buildings that are 20 feet apart. They are very clear that you must allow access for a fire truck.
                      I supose that I could say that Creepyworld does not comply with Ohio code. Good thing for Larry that it doesn't have to. That would really suck if someone 3 states away could shut him down.
                      www.haroldshaunt.com

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I didn't realize everything had to always go back to what Larry is doing or getting away with.

                        Anyway, if you don't have to have them, cool I guess. My point is its not impossible to start out with low funds and not have a sprinkler system. You might not be able to build on a farm but you most certainly can do a haunt.
                        Jared Layman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by mindtumor View Post
                          Whether you are small or not, I'm surprised people would be so happy this. I would not do a haunt before I would do one in non sprinkled building. I was dirt poor when I started out and still managed to meet this requirement. But if you are allowed not too, whatever. But don't try and tell us all being small makes it too tough to do this. Difficult yeah, but completely possible.
                          Dude you edited your post as I was answering your question. But anyway, I'm happy because he said that he would have had to shut down without a varience. Nothing is impossible, but there is a huge chance that moving my show to another location would bankrupt me, when in my opinion, and the opinion of my State legislaters, my State fire marshal, my local building official, and my local fire dept. my show is fine. I guess they are not as smart as you.
                          Yes, State law does allow me to operate without a sprinkler system. Nobody has to like it. It is what the people of Ohio have decided. Ohio also thinks that it is ok to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, and make sure you are sitting down.... They allow us to carry guns. You can even buy a machine gun in Ohio. Ohio also has some laws that I don't agree with, like the smoking ban, but they are our laws, they came from legislaters that I had an opportunity to vote for.

                          My point is, different states have different ideas of what is acceptable. They are populated by different people. If we were all lumped together as the United States, singular not plural, the only people who would have a say so are people in the most populated areas. The fate of the whole country would be determined by California and New York. I know that many would like that, but this country boy is an individual with individual God given rights. I am only being consistant in my beliefs that power should not be centralized.

                          We all agree that haunted houses should be safe, we just have a different idea of what safe is.
                          www.haroldshaunt.com

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mike Goff View Post
                            Dude you edited your post as I was answering your question. But anyway, I'm happy because he said that he would have had to shut down without a varience. Nothing is impossible, but there is a huge chance that moving my show to another location would bankrupt me, when in my opinion, and the opinion of my State legislaters, my State fire marshal, my local building official, and my local fire dept. my show is fine. I guess they are not as smart as you.
                            Yes, State law does allow me to operate without a sprinkler system. Nobody has to like it. It is what the people of Ohio have decided. Ohio also thinks that it is ok to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, and make sure you are sitting down.... They allow us to carry guns. You can even buy a machine gun in Ohio. Ohio also has some laws that I don't agree with, like the smoking ban, but they are our laws, they came from legislaters that I had an opportunity to vote for.

                            My point is, different states have different ideas of what is acceptable. They are populated by different people. If we were all lumped together as the United States, singular not plural, the only people who would have a say so are people in the most populated areas. The fate of the whole country would be determined by California and New York. I know that many would like that, but this country boy is an individual with individual God given rights. I am only being consistant in my beliefs that power should not be centralized.

                            We all agree that haunted houses should be safe, we just have a different idea of what safe is.
                            Where did I say I was smarter than the local officials? I said if you don't have to have them, whatever. Then in the second post I said good for you for not having to have them? Then I said its not impossible to be small and on a small budget to have a sprinker system. None of that was negative but hey if thats how you want to take that go ahead. Congrats on not having to wear a helmet and being able to carry a gun, too. I am glad you decided to share that with me.

                            I wonder if Larry can carry a gun, after all it all comes back to him right?
                            Jared Layman

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              My apologies

                              The last thing that I want to do is to take this to a negative place. This issue is far more important than my personal feelings or yours for that matter. My comment about you being smarter than them was a response to the sarcasim that was obviously evident somewhere between your edited posts. Larry jumped into this conversation just as you and I did and is subject to scrutiny just as you and I are. Something about stones and a glass house, can't quite remember.
                              I think that Larry and I probably agree on more things than we disagree on. I have no desire to prove anyone wrong, I would rather lay out my case and possibly change a few minds on the subject. There is, as a matter of fact, much at stake.

                              I was reading somewhere, someone please help me out on this it is a good example. Anyway, I was reading that this guy had invented a table saw that could sense flesh and would automatically shut power to the blade if you got your fingers too close.
                              This guy is now lobbying congress to pass a law that all table saws must be equipped with his safety device. The good news is that this is a great invention, the bad news is that it could drive the cost of a table saw to over 1000 dollars.

                              There are 2 obvious positions that someone could take. #1 you can't put a price on safety, this device could save countless fingers.
                              #2 it's cost prohibitive, this will keep people from buying table saws.

                              My position is a little different and probably unpopular as well. I see a guy who is trying to use the system to advance his business. He stands to profit from regulation, just as many large business profit from regulation. I am disgusted that a law maker would even consider the idea that he can tell me what kind of saw that I can buy. (I'm sorry I have this dilusion that I am free) Now if the people of California or Cuba would like to pass this law and make it illegal to sell a Preban configured saw, I will bow out like a gentleman and think to myself damn, just another reason not to live there. However when that fight comes to my state, it's on. I will ademantly oppose any such legislation and I will do my best to reveal the motives of those involved.

                              as far as bringing up the motorcycle helmets and guns, the analagy fits and as a bonus, it pisses off control freaks. What's life if you can't have a little fun now and then.
                              Last edited by Mike Goff; 04-26-2011, 10:43 AM.
                              www.haroldshaunt.com

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                              • #30
                                Not an issue

                                There was no sarcasm in the post I edited. It simply asked what state law in Ohio was, not the local law. There was nothing more to it then curiousity. It was asked because the original post was about Indiana and you started talking about Ohio. I was curious what the law was there. There was nothing more to it. When I am being sarcastic, it is blazingly obvious.
                                Jared Layman

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