Indiana Fire Marshal holds off enforcing sprinkers....

[drfrightner]

Healthy debate, healthy conversation, lets keep it that way please. I have no angery towards anyone just debating the issue. I think and believe that whomever is allowing haunts to open in Indiana are not following building code rules and eventually it will catch up to you. You should plan to install a sprinkler system reguardless of if you slide by this year or not...

Put this into your budget because eventually someone will catch onto this, typically from someone who has one, and is upset you don't... they will rat you out and or make a big deal about it.

Bottom line is you should have one end of story, and that is really nothing you can defend or argue. Whether or not you think it doesn't stop smoke, it is a first step prevention device meant to put out a fire...yes? And you don't have one! And we both know you should. So I'm happy you get to open again, but make plans to install one because one of these days someone will realize you are breaking the rules set by the building code and make you get one. You need one.

To clarify... I do NOT think all haunts need one only if they are tent haunted houses, or very small attractions because you can install multiple exits and when I say multiple I mean as many as you need as many as you want. In an indoor building the cost to do so would be so much money you could install a sprinkler system.

Larry

[Mike Goff]

At the risk of keeping this train wreck in motion

Ok, I'm glad that we can agree to keep this civil. Thank you for clarifying your position, Larry. It does help with a frame of reference, however, questions remain. I have laid out why i believe that a haunted house can safely operate without a sprinkler system, although I will concede that these cases are few and must meet strict criteria. I have also demonstrated how devistating this would be to small market haunts, and ultimately the industry as a whole.

If I am correct, you believe that tents and small haunts should be given a waiver. It would help if you would define small. I believe that my haunt, 4800 square feet is small by industry standards. You have also made it clear that you think that all haunts in buildings should aspire to achieve a sprinkler system. On this I also agree. There is some confusion on another statement that you made. You said that we both know that you should have a sprinkler system.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you are making the statement that building haunts should in fact have sprinkler systems, and according to some on this forum, that means regardless of size.
I have learned quite a bit over the years, lurking on Hauntworld and watching the Hauntworld movies, so I do value your opinion. However you have not demonstrated any evidence or studies that support your claim that a sprinkler system in a small haunt will save lives. I personally just can't accept the idea that someone cannot reach that emergency exit that is less than 50 feet away, regardless of which way they go. If this is true, the more callous among us might refer to this as natural selection. Not that I would.

Is there any evidence at all? Being from "The Show Me State" you can appreciate.

I really hate to keep this going, but we are talking about what could be an extinction level event for small market haunts. You big guys can shrug it off as no big deal, but I won't. I will disclose that if I had to do it, I would probably be successful in finding a way, but most wouldn't this would easily wipe out the majority of haunts in my state.

[drfrightner]

Mike,

Fact is MOST building have sprinkler systems. When I look for a location maybe I see one in ten buildings that do not have them. Almost any business these days for occupancy the building must have a sprinkler system so most buildings have them. I doubt we'll see mid level haunts disappear because of this issue because again most building already have them.

All indoor haunts should have a sprinkler system no exceptions.

Outdoor haunts especially ones in tents should get a waiver because you can create 20 exits lets say in a 40 x 100 tent just an example. In other words you make a turn or two and boom you are out of the tent. In a building you have to go through like 50% of the place to find a way out again should have a sprinkler end of story.

Now let me say if you are getting away without one you are flying in the face of the actual codes that your inspectors are suppose to follow... if they are allowing you to get away with it then I guess good for you. Double up the safety and make sure you do everything you can that no fire will erupt. However let me say I doubt you'll get away with it forever so plan to get one no matter what. One day they'll hit you with it and you'll be caught with your pants down... it will happen one day so just prepare yourself. Nothing wrong with looking into it and getting some bids.

Larry

[Mike Goff]

Evidence!

Provide evidence that sprinkler systems in small haunts save lives and I swear that I will shut up. You have no idea what kind of buildings are available in my market. Why would law makers write a provision for a variance, if doing so undermines the code? (or flies in the face of it)



For God's sake, someone show me evidence. Who cares about opinion at this point, we have been discussing opinion for days. I'm tired of discussing what if's? I want to hear about a case that someone could not walk 50 feet to save their life.
If it happened, or if it is even remotely possible, someone tell me how. Even if you apply the what if's. What if they trip, and are left for dead? What if they are blind? What if my aunt had balls? Would that make her my uncle?

When has a case occured that they saved lives in a small haunt. Make a believer out of me, and I will shut up. I clearly stated all of the officials that have been in my building and see no problem, legally or moraly.

Please don't get lost in all that I have written, all but one of my questions are rhetorical, concentrate on the EVIDENCE.


Thank you,
Mike Evidence Goff

[shawnc]

MOST buildings have sprinkler systems? Not where I live.

Interestingly, I live in California - The Regulation State. Not sure how it has slipped by that they haven't required retrofits on every building here yet.

Larry, the abundance of regulations do bring up a good point though. California was the first state you edited when updating your haunt lists. Was that because it took all of five minutes? It's pathetic that the largest state in the country by population seemingly has the lowest number of haunts (except for Rode Island maybe). Yes, safety is the most important thing. But when does it all become too much? Businesses of all types have left my state in droves, heading east, west, south and north, for friendlier locales.

And what's next? Have you seen the ornament fire extinguishers they make for Christmas trees? What's to say that soon fire inspectors won't require an individual automatic extinguisher for every prop, since they are the weak point in most haunts as far as fire-proofing? That will certainly make things safer, but when is it too much?

EDITED: I just checked the list and it looks like I sold Rhode Island short. My apologies to the many haunts there. So that officially make California pathetic place to do business.

[drfrightner]

Couple things...

You talk about CA... did you know there are TWO STATES in America that MANDATE all new home construction require fire sprinkler systems? TWO STATES... Cali and PA, yes all new home constuction require them flat out. Yeah they are useless so much so that two states not only require them for commerical use but now homes not to mention hotels and down.

Secondly, and I'm just saying ANYONE and I mean ANYONE who thinks a sprinkler system in your haunt is a bad idea, or won't help save your customers is a FLAT OUT MORON IDIOT! PERIOD!

Now I'm not saying you are being required to have them, or you should go out and buy one, I'm simply saying if you think this won't help make your haunt safer, and or protect your customers and you simply the dumbest person in this business. It only makes me imagine just how unsafe your haunt really is that the one thing that can really make your haunt safe you think its useless or simply not needed, I wonder what else you think is not worth the time or effort. This would scare the hell out of me to even think about.

Lastly learn about Sprinkler systems here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_sprinkler_system

Couple things that stand out: They have been in use in the USA since 1852 the first ever built was in 1812 in the UK. Another important fact is they state the following: A commercial sprinkler system is designed to protect the structure and the occupants from a fire. Most residential sprinkler systems are primarily designed to suppress a fire in such a way to allow for the safe escape of the building occupants. While these systems will often also protect the structure from major fire damage, this is a secondary consideration.

Hmmm... protecting the structure is a secondary concern, first concern is to protect the people inside and help them escape.

HELLO... your haunted house is a MAZE and your customer dont' know how to get through and find an exit that easy, a fire could knock out all the lights, elights only help so much, and you think a sprinkler system won't help... HOLY COW!

Lastly, you are flat out wrong about most buildings not having sprinkler systems, almost every single building I've ever looked at had them, and I build attractions for living since 1994 and have installed over 200 attractions. NEVER ONCE did I install an attraction in a building that wasn't required by the government to have a sprinkler system. NO ONE! NOT ONE! If you are getting away with it you are getting away with MURDER... and once a fire does happen and you are hung from the highest tree by the media you'll know what I'm saying.

Larry

[Boni]

This discussion is very interesting to me, but it has now sunk to name calling and insults.

Please move back into the realm of facts and legitimate information.

Something we need to be careful of is assuming that what we see in our world translates 100% into what others see in theirs. I know there were some assumptions in some of these arguments that do not hold true in my market.

But please keep rolling with good information and refrain from the name calling.

[JamBam]

getting away with saying getting away with

Larry, First of all, we agree that sprinklers are the ultimate for safety. There are ways to satisfy the concerns of the authorities at present that can be done without sprinklers. They make those decisions.

Your point that CA and PA are requiring new home construction to have sprinklers is being considered by many other states. What they are NOT doing is requiring every house already built to have them. It wouldn't happen. We have been in this building since 1998. It is part of a downtown block and there is no building in the whole downtown other than the new library and city hall that I know of that has sprinklers. And the city hall building was renovated completely ficve years ago and also houses the fire department.

I agree that any new haunts should have to be in sprinklered buildings. Requiring existing buildings to comply with new regulations of any kind is usually not done. Yes, the haunts are designed to confuse the patron and even staff can be confused by floorplans. That is why the exit rules, smoke alarms, emergency lighting, exit lights, etc are in the rules.

Finally, you have written a bunch of times that we and others are "getting away" with not following code. Here is where you, LARRY, are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. We comply with all rules and laws that Indiana has in place at the present time. The states do have the leeway for implementing wahtever codes they want by law. The state also has in place a variance process as I presume it is in every state that allows the governing authority to grant a variance to those rules and laws. The new regulation that the Indiana State Fire Marshall had announced he was going to implement was going to affect first all existing haunts, then was going to be implemented in four phases depending on when they started, in effect grandfathering those haunts. Now, he has announced that Indiana will hold off for 2011 and gather data. Yes, it may and probably will be put into effect at some point. If any grandfathering or variances are allowed is still up to the state.

Bottom line is that whatever the code is or becomes, if we can't comply to Indiana's requirements, then we won't be open. I won't try to get away with anything.

[Mike Goff]

Sprinkler systems can be dangerous

Or should I say that mandetory sprinkler laws can be dangerous. Here's how. There is a tipping point at which a buisiness cannot be profitable or even survive. I believe that there are many haunts that fly under the radar, because they just cant swing the money for installation of a system or the rent, on a building that already has a system. These types of haunts are the real death traps, because in an effort to remain incognito, they cut themselves off from the rest of the haunted industry and the very system that was designed to make them safe. They can't install a fire alarm without going through the same channels that would bust them for not having a sprinkler system. By remaining outside the proper channels of govt. they are oblivious to things that we all consider common sense safety measures. This phenomenon is know as an unintended consequence. We country folk are very familiar with unintended consequences, because we are constantly bombarded with large populated areas imposing their wills upon us. We see first hand what kind of havoc is reaped from their good intensions.
These underground haunts are illusive, but do exist. I kind of have reservations about exposing their existance. On one hand, they do need guidance, and I don't want anyone to get hurt. On the other hand, imagine if there were hard proof of bigfoot, he might be hunted to extinction. Argue all you want, they do exist for this very reason. (underground haunts, not bigfoot, the jury is still out on that one)

Another way that sprinklers can be dangerous is that it provides a false sense of security. I have witnessed this first hand in some very big haunted houses. I have seen them do things that I consider very dangerous.

What should be done about these underground haunts? I really wish that I had a good answer, but I won't pretend to. We could pull up the jack boots and run them out of business, or we can try to convey reason to our lawmakers and then invite these illusive creatures into the fold.

I do believe that sprinklers are a good thing, and when I can afford them, I will install a system regardless of requirement. It will be added insurance and peace of mind. I have been in search of a building that has a system, and believe it or not began negotiations on a 29,000 square foot building that has such a system. I am still waiting for a response to my last offer. I have not changed my mind that a small haunt can safely operate without a system, especially since no evidence or studies proving me wrong have been introduced whatsoever.

There are alot of intelligent educated people on this forum, surely someone can show me a study where someone could not successfully navigate their way through 50 feet of hallway. If the lack of response is out of fear of a swift and decisive rebuttal, I assure you, that I am only interested in the truth, and the facts. I feel like I am the one who has walked into the lions den, because it is quite probable that the majority of the participants on this forum do have sprinkler systems. If this were not so, they would probably want to remain low profile. I will concede the fact that a sprinkler system will more than likely put out a fire before the fire dept. arrives on scene. This will greatly minimize any risk to the firemen. It would only be fair to point out that a national 7pm cerfew would greatly reduce crime, therefore minimizing risk to police officers. It all comes down to what a society is willing to accept. How much freedom are you willing to give up in exchange for safety and security?

I am in a unique position, I can legally operate without a sprinkler system and can still relate to haunts who are not legal.

I have great admiration and respect for the haunt owners in large markets. They have taught me a great deal, I have taught them nothing. (I never got the chance) Because of this, I believe that I could move to a large market and give them a run for their money. I also believe that if they came to a small market, they would get their clocks cleaned by those who have mastered the art of making something out of nothing with limited resources.

My governor, my lawmakers, and my inspectors may all be idiots, there are times that I would agree, but they are Ohio's idiots, and as long as outsiders do not try to influence them, we have no problem whatsoever. Let's agree to disagree, like gentlemen.


One last point, since when is it a good thing to invoke California as an example to follow? Have you seen the state of their economy? Seriously?????

[badass]

Authority having Juristiction

read your nfpa 13 which governs sprinklers and the international fire code ..
and of course local zoning codes....which is the law governing the issue

btw..

they all leave the final decision up to the authority having jurisdiction...

sooo the law could say you must have a sprinkler system in a building over a thousand square feet...

but your local inspector could say he wants one in a building less then that..or not at all...its his decision...

ours decided (2 years after all the permits ) that our water line which runs under the state route..needed to be a case bore...which cost a ton more..
and alot of other things which went beyond the scope of the fire code..and always added to the final cost..
but he was the authority having jurisdiction...
it is what it is

[badass]

Authority having Juristiction

read your nfpa 13 which governs sprinklers and the international fire code ..
and of course local zoning codes....which is the law governing the issue

btw..

they all leave the final decision up to the authority having jurisdiction...

sooo the law could say you must have a sprinkler system in a building over a thousand square feet...

but your local inspector could say he wants one in a building less then that..or not at all...its his decision...

ours decided (2 years after all the permits ) that our water line which runs under the state route..needed to be a case bore...which cost a ton more..
and alot of other things which went beyond the scope of the fire code..and always added to the final cost..
but he was the authority having jurisdiction...
it is what it is

[drfrightner]

Couple things to correct ya hear... no its not up to local authorities there is a few different national building code organizations that your city and or state adopts. Sometimes a smaller town or city might not adopt them because they do not have the manpower to enforce them. If your local town or state adobts say BOCA its like an association and all they do is update and change and write building code books for those who join to enforce. Most states especially throughout the midwest subscribe to BOCA. If your town or city has adopted BOCA it must be strickly enforced, but its up to the local inspectors to enforce. If they are NOT enforcing yeah you get away with murder.

I'm not saying that lots of haunts get away with 100 times more than say I would or Netherworld or the 100's of other haunts I'm merely saying your inspector at ANY TIME can walk into your place and say BOOM you are DONE! You don't comply with BOCA codes and until you do your doors are shut.

THIS WILL HAPPEN it happened to Spookyworld, it happened to my first haunt, (put in a sprinkler or don't open) end of story.

So you can go on dreaming that its not a MUST HAVE for your haunted house, you can go on dreaming no one will ever demand you install one but you are again just dreaming.

If you can go out and buy a ton of props for your haunt, while ignoring a sprinkler system, that is sad. Haunts can burn... look at Talon Falls yes no one got hurt but don't you think he wishes up and down his place didn't burn down. He lost everything, true his place burnt outside, but man OUTSIDE and it burned down, you are INSIDE...

Six Flags fire burned down and several people DEAD! That nightclub that burnt to the ground no sprinkler system 100 people DEAD.

It can happen to you... again if anyone thinks they don't need one, they are an indoor haunt, and or a sprinkler system is worthless. In the words of Mr Bedroom intruder ' you are so dumb, for real!'. Don't say later 'I wish someone would have said something to me...'.

LOL

Larry

[Mike Goff]

I'm not quite sure if this train has much forward momentum left, but either way, It's time for me to jump. It seems that we have accomplished nothing, we cannot even agree to disagree. There is only so much of dumb, stupid, and idiot that I will listen to without tossing my manners to the wind. I am in no way running from this conversation, I just think that if it is to continue, it should be face to face. I'm the short guy that will be wearing a Scare Fair shirt. I'll be at Hauntcon, Midwest, and Transworld, if anyone would like to continue, perhaps then we can maintain civility, or perhaps not.

I have no doubt that the day will come that all of us will be required to have a sprinkler system, I also believe that we will no longer be able to accept cash, and that we will not be able to open our doors without the approval of our benevolent masters.

It really is amazing how far we have come. I am constantly reminded of this due to the generation gap between myself and my parents. Last summer, I was due to fire treat my haunted house, when my father inlaw asked me what I was doing. The conversation eventually led to the cost, and other things like the fire alarm. When he asked me why I was spending all of this money to do something that no one could see, I told him that it was to make the place safer, to keep it from burning down, with people inside. In a very disgusted tone he said to me, "You mean to tell me that if this place catches on fire, that people aren't smart enough to find thier way out? You've got doors everywhere!" I tried to explain to him that it was much better to be safe than sorry, and that it kept the State and local inspectors off of my back. His exact words were, "Why don't you grow a pair, and tell them to kiss your ass?"

I am not saying that I agree with him, because I really don't want to continue this ridiculous, go no where conversation, but it really dawned on me how much things have changed. My fathers generation was bold and independent. His fathers generation was probably more so. Our generation wimpers and cowers at the thought of the media.

I'm done now Larry, so go ahead and get the last word.

[annarchy]

code

I spoke for the MI Fire Inspectors Conference a few years ago and have opend my doors numerous times for inspectors (50+) to visit, tour, and have a Q & A session. It appeared to me that many inspectors didn't really know what to look for or what exactly to enforce. Correct me if I'm wrong here....but I remember haunted houses run by non-profits that were in, well, houses. Well before all the regulations (which I approve, mind you). Fast forward 30+years, now we have a growing industry, gaining momentum each year, and as a result (like many other industries) many ppl jumping in to the game. We do not fall into one specific BOCA code: public assembly? entertainment? or what? Some of my local inspectors in my surrounding region, have suggested that I (we) write a code for all haunts to follow. Anyone interested???
In my opinion, if you and the inspector do it right from the beginning, you would: FIRST locate a building that has a sprinkler system AND invite the inspector in with you before signing a lease or sale agreement.
For you guys that keep arguing your point of NOT having a system...I'm empathetic to your situation and can only imagine the cost that could be incurred to add it now. Perhaps you search out a building that has a system and move. Passionate haunters about their haunts should also be passionate about the industry as a whole. If so, I believe you would see the "potential" media damage that could be caused to FELLOW haunters in the event something bad happens within your attraction, especially without a sprinkler system. I feel that those of you defending your stand on 'no systems' are being self-centered and not thinking outside yourselves rather than what's best for the industry itself.
So...how about writing a national code??

[drfrightner]

Mike,

Look and yeah I'm going to say something else because this is a SERIOUS issue... and I'll say it again DUMB! Anyone who thinks a sprinkler system is worthless or needs proof they would help save a life is an IDIOT I dont' care who you are. If we took a poll here and polled people who own haunts, if we polled people who work as a fire fighter, or people who had a loved one who died in the Six Flags fire or the nightclub fire, and ask them what they would do right now if someone made those groups have a fire sprinkler system, what do you think they would say.

I'm asking you... so tell me?

Lastly, I'm not calling YOU dumb, I'm not calling you an idiot, I'm saying ANYONE who thinks they shouldn't have one in an indoor haunted house with only 2 or 3 exits is putting themselves, their customers, and the whole entire industry at RISK, and I'll say its DUMB, STUPID, or whatever 1000 more times... and I'll get an army of owners to back me up on that.

Lastly, I have stated facts, I've set the record straight now 5 million times here, I've given you links to information, quoted things, you can go to the BOCA website, NFPA website you can do whatever you want... you can go and check your local building codes, look them up. DId your town adopt BOCA? Did you know that they might have adopted BOCA but haven't adopted the latest versions, they might still be using 1995 rather than 2008 or 2011 or whatever.

There are a lot of issues out there... but I'm going to say flat out 110% that the rules MOST haunts operate by require them to have a sprinkler system in an indoor building, and when I say MOST I MEAN ALMOST ALL!

So if you think you should be the exception or that guy should be the exception or there could be an exception when across the country people are made to do this its for a reason but just because it sounds fun to do so what do you think that reason is? ... I guess for you or someone else you are the exceptions because you are doing more than the rest of us. NO YOU ARE NOT... no I can't agree to disagree because you are wrong!

This isn't an issue like what is better google or yahoo what is better radio or tv, this is life or death.

There is no agree to disagree you do everything you can to be a responsible haunt owner operator and do everything you can to make your haunted house as safe as possible... not having or think you don't need a sprinkler system is WRONG! DEAD WRONG with NO PUN intended.

Larry

PS: I'm not calling ANYONE on these forums or ANY haunt owner dumb or anything else... I'm stating a FACT if you think your haunt doesn't need a sprinkler system that it wouldn't be worth a dime to improve your haunts safety ... that is dumb without question. Now if you are one of those haunts who realize yeah it would make my haunt safer, you realize that but you could just never afford one, and right now you are doing everything you can to make your haunt safe and your local inspector allows that... no you are not dumb. However the people who would sit here and say they would not make your haunt safer, or they wouldn't save a life, or whatever ... OMG silly behond anything I've ever heard. That is what I'm saying, not calling ANYONE on here dumb.