Money Back Haunt LLC. (BS scheme or good marketing?)

[Haunted Castle]

Hey Chris

Chris, Your account of our transaction is mostly correct, just as I got the basic concept from Howie years ago and modified it to suit our need, you done the same with my idea even down to using our release form which I have never had a problem with anyone using however, a heads up or even a ” Do you mind if I use your release and idea to make money with” would have been nice, not required -- but nice.

I think what everyone is having the problem with is the trademark, like you said take that up with our Government, from what I see everything you have done is legal, may not be ethical among other haunters but legal is the magic word. Anyway, I will respect your trademark and have removed all reference to our Money Back Haunt and the Panic Room.

I don’t think the way you came about the idea and promoted it as your own is going to help your creditabity. But, haunting is just a hobby to me so I’ll let you and your business associates deal with the integrity issue.

Was good talking to you again I tried to call the number you posted but there was no answer should (show up as 606-669-0312) so I fig I just post it here. I hope your Idea really takes off, lol you really seem so set on been successful at all expense. Take Care Fred PS excuse spelling , grammar I’m a cop not a teacher, lol

[Rex W.]

Sounded like a total scam

[MoneyBackHaunts.com]

Fred,

I just got back in and saw your missed call. It's too late to call you tonight so I'll call you tomorrow and we can chat about it. We'll work something out, I don't want to hurt your existing business. I was under the impression you "retired" from haunting a few years back. I guess once it's in the blood, it's just too much fun to stop I do appreciate the phonecall and will return it tomorrow.

[Greg Chrise]

Business model fail

Trade marks and agressively protecting same might work with a product or service that makes 1.5 million to 15 million per year gross. Then you wait until they make said money and sue for a royalty. If a haunt or group of haunts ever got to 1.5 million, the money back part might work as a side attraction. But generally haunts are from year to year on the verge of growing or receeding and any suit what so ever just makes them go into bankruptsy. If you think stopping anyone using this without you is how you make money, you need better attorneys. Like the $375 per hour guys.

Any crap in this industry that takes people to court as considered normal business is just plain bullshit. Everyone that routinely shares all information good or bad just hates you. Simple as that. A little hard to maintain "industry" references for chasing gypsy wagons. The haunts that are succeeding are a little smarter than to accept any predatory licensing. So that leaves you with people that have never done crap before and basically are victims waiting to happen.

So you have a five fold problem. A concept that is for short term. Trying to sue people that have no money. Being able to pay about $6500 per case in legal fees is going to be intresting. Back in the day there were people that thought there was such a profession level of business and got trademarks and everyone hated them and every breath they made. No one recommended anyone do business with them. They hated this or these guys to no end and spent years, hundreds of hours for free per year, making sure no one got taken. So you are going to cost a lot of good people money taking the time away from their own businesses to hate you.

Of course the bad man still managed to corral people with money that had never done an event before and run them into the ground but, they always seemed to not get paid too. Why you would want to live that way is beyond me.

I just can't understand why the bad man won't be my facebook freind. He was so much fun.

[Scenic Art Productions]

Not really any of my concern but, let me help explain.

Chris,

If you are reading this I wanted to tell you ( just to try to help and explain in a friendly way ) as Fred tried to say. I do not think the reason everyone on here is upset with you is the "idea" , it is what and how you did to it. You took something that has been around for years in one form or another and made it yours and are threatening everyone that may do anything similar. It would be McDonald's suing Burger King because they sell burgers.

I build Theatrical Props, Sets, and Signage. I had a sign customer (I build signs for other sign companies) that I would do work for that claimed something I have been doing, as well as many other companies was patend and no one else can do that. You cannot own a process. You can sell the work and labor involved coming up with it but not really own it. It would be like McDonald's suing every burger place for putting a burger on a bun. Like you cannot build a house by framing a house at 16" centers. I understand wanting to protect yourself but modesty goes a long way also. One the other hand you can own your name and logo. That is a fact.

I hate seeing all this arguing on here. Life is too short. Why not change this thread to being a question and answer on what you are selling. As I had read this thread, it sounded like you, your employees and or buisness partners were so secretive about what you are selling that you set yourself up to look like a scam. Kind of the way these pyramid schemes are. That is what looks like what started all of this mess. From there it set you and others on the defense. That is what it looks like to me. I hope, if you are truelly trying to do things the right way by being true and honest this will help you out in the future.

Good luck to all,
Robert Travis
Scenic Art Productions
ScenicArtProductions@Yahoo.COM
Http://www.facebook.com/scenicartproductions

[icarian]

my quick 2 cents: yes, you can trademark your name... BUT if at anytime the 3 words used in your "trademarked name" fall into common vernacular, your grounds for a lawsuit are null. (IE: Frappuccino... originally owned by starbucks, yet the term fell into common vernacular and now starbucks can only defend Frappuccino Blended Creme, Frappuccino Blended Coffee, Frappuccino Light Blended Creme, the font, artwork, and etc. ALL employees are required [yet rarely follow the requirement] to call the beverage by its EXACT trademark term, my job was enforcing this rule for several years.... same story, Band-Aid has now become Band-Aid Brand because Band-aid fell into common vernacular)

If Money Back Haunt wants to protect their trademark, they WILL, inevitably, have to alter the spelling, layout, or wording, as ALL the words are common vernacular for any haunted attraction that offers money back in any way shape or form. None of the phrase "money back haunt" is specific to your brand. The artwork, colors, intellectual property (your ACTUAL process and any documentation that the haunt would recieve) are ALL protected. HOWEVER, the term "money back haunt" and "all variations thereof" are not COMPLETELY protected. They're only yours so long as no one else stands up and defends the fact that you are suing them for using common terms to describe a TYPE of service, not neccissarily copying you or your business model, but for advertising that their patrons can recieve money back.

again, just my 2 cents. I can say that i personally wont be doing business with money back haunt, and my reasoning is simply that the trademarked name itself and the viciousness with which it is GOING to be protected comes across as something exceedingly shady... i cannot get around that first hurdle. If the name were original, i could get over the concept being something that others have tried and your company may have improved on. but the name is so basic that it appears to be a trap set and waiting for the first people you can find who unknowingly used your intellectual property. I am not trying to bash anyone, this is simply the way that this is all appearing to me, a member of your target customer base.

[graystone]

One Time Only

Yes I am a voice for bad vendors and buyers! I have gotten so many calls and emails that I am like WTF. I am going to say a few things and leave it at that. This is the only time I will say this. Here is a few facts......

1. Chris is a friend of mine ( and FYI if he was doing people wrong I would still call him out like I would anyone) but don't see that he has really did anything other than to draw attention to himself and his haunt and hey that is not all bad lol
2. He's not ripped anyone off... You either buy into his product or you don't
3. This Thread is really pointless and should be listed under the "Industry Debates" Section after all this is a "Debate"


4. Now if this is the problem and again I am really unclear what the bitch fest is about but if the ''Debate" is about using the phrase " Money Back " " The Money Back" " Money Back Haunt" " Money Back Haunted House" or any forums. I talked to a friend of mine yesterday who heads the legal team of another friend of mine who owns over 400 well known stores here in the U.S and he tells me all of these words are common words and YOU CANNOT BE SUED FOR USING THEM. They are apart of whats called common names or english common vernacular. I can't speak for Chris and honestly who in the hell want's to offer money back for their show I mean after all every TOM, DICK AND HARRY COULD SAY I HATED THIS AND WANT MY MONEY BACK even though you may have the best show in the country. Never understood why that's used in our Industry just the same as using $1, $2, $5 dollar off coupons! Hell no one gave me a anything off when I paid thousands of dollars for props. You either want to pay $20.00 to see my show or you don't it's that simple! Anyway back to what this attorney ( who again is the head of the legal team of a multi billion dollar company and they deal with the companies trademark names daily ) and what he said. He said no one can Trandmark common words, names. Now if he did a Trademark on a certain custom fount's custom graphics ect then yes he has a case but it would be on that and not the words. He also said in this country you can do anything you want and any attorney will defend his client whether or not he believes them or their actions. Attorneys are not judge's they are just hired to do a job win or lose. So let's just let this go because there is really nothing to fight about unless your using the things I just listed!

Now let it go and if you think your going to get sued for using the words The, Money or Back your just being silly and I assure you if you do and you go to court I will give you "your money back" if you lose!!! Now someone run and trade mark "Your Money Back"!!!!! See my point? Chris wish you well my friend and everyone else let's bitch about gas prices!!!!! Shane and it's hopefully this will die now! Shane

[Frightener]

THIS IS BS!!!!!




Cheapest place in town went up .16 cents OVERNIGHT! I thought gas prices couldn't raise more than .10 cents in 24 hours? Maybe I'm wrong but hey.





Not to mention my other car is a 67 Camaro SS and needs super that's $4 a gallon as I write this.

[screamforadream]

$4/gallon for SUPER???? Where do you live?!? (I should probably know lol but whatever)
I pay practically $4/gallon for REGULAR!!!

That's it, screw CT!

[Frightener]

Arkansas, derr lol. Yeah, we usually get hit mid to late in the game.

[Howie Slobber Erlich]

Shane,

I Applaud you for defending your friend. I think the main reasons that people are upset with Chris are simple. 1. He is still claiming this is or was his idea. This after admitting he used Fred's concept and was explained how to do it by Fred himself. Also it is an insult to anyone who ever did a money back haunt before him. 2. He is threatening people that if they use Money Back haunt or any variation in their advertising or at their haunt he will go after them legally to try and scare them off. We all know that he will never win a law suit on this issue for the reasons you stated as well as others but he still doesn't understand that. He thinks he'll actually win.

A big part of what he is trying to sell is that he will go after anybody who uses "money back". Because that really would be the only way to protect his licensees and guarantee them any sort of territorial rights. He can't and won't be suing them. As of a couple day ago, I spent several hours searching the Internet. There are at least 27 haunts that have either done or are doing some sort or money back haunt. By your figure, $6500.00 x 27 = $175,500.00 on law suits. Not to mention the time involved that it would take to go after each one of these haunts.

I hope this thread goes away as well. All it is doing now is creating more buzz and free advertising. I think that all points have been made by both sides. We have stated our feelings and he has not changed or admitted doing anything thing wrong or shady. My only hope is that real haunters out there will understand that they do not need him or his license to do a money back haunt. There are plenty of ways around it without the fear of being sued. I would never do another money back haunt because frankly after 12 years since I introduced it, it has been done so many times that very few customers even care about it anymore. And even worse, this concept where they have to do the "Fear Factor" stuff is even worse and possibly dangerous. I wonder what the health department thinks about what he is making people do to get their money back? I think I will make a few calls about that later today.

And it's I don't steal other peoples ideas then claim them as my own Howie this time!

[Haunted Yard Props]

New Trademark

Screw "Money Back Haunt".

I just trademarked "No Refunds".

[Howie Slobber Erlich]

LOL! I trademarked (Haunted House, Haunted Atrraction, Hay Ride, Dark Ride, Woods, Trailer, Boo, Terror, Horror, Clowns, Chainsaws & Blood.) Plus I just passed my Bar Exam and am looking to do a lot of suing! So bring it people!

Howie

[wickedfarmer]

Whew...I'm safe

LOL! I trademarked (Haunted House, Haunted Atrraction, Hay Ride, Dark Ride, Woods, Trailer, Boo, Terror, Horror, Clowns, Chainsaws & Blood.) Plus I just passed my Bar Exam and am looking to do a lot of suing! So bring it people!

Howie

I'm still good to go with "corn maze". Please don't register "Wicked Farmer"...it would mean I miss all this fun!

Wicked Farmer

[MoneyBackHaunts.com]

haha. I'm glad we've found the lighter side now

I understand everyone's views, well most at least. We might not agree but we can all live and let live on this. I just wish we could've gotten here without the personal bashing. It has clouded the subject. I genuinely believe I can help some haunts (and have no ill-intentions whatsoever everybody!), but if we disagree, I'm ok with that. And I respect people's opinions in this industry. Btw, I want to thank Fred, for calling me today. Good to talk with you.

And just to answer a question posed, the trademarks are the actual wording without discrimination to style, font, or lettering. So I'll make my final plea to please not steal it. I don't mean to dwell on it but I don't want any confusion. I don't wanna harm anyone within the industry, believe me. I'm not a jerk, at least I dont think so But I really think I have something worth protecting. And I need to protect my licensees. That's all. Now, back to haunting!