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  • Question about latex?

    I know this might sound goofy & it may have been covered before, but I'll be damned if I can find it in any thread, but...I pretty much got every material covered in my haunt agenda (fire rated plywood, flame retardant spray for fabrics & paint additives, etc.) however the one biggy I haven't seen addressed (& we all use plenty of) is latex! (& plastics). If water cannot penetrate it than the spray fire retardant is ineffective thus unacceptable by the F/M. So how do you protect these items? Are most of these prop builders using a F/R latex or plastic? I would highly doubt it...& if they are they're needs to be documentation coming with these props for the F/M...@ least where I'm working. Some of the same props I'm buying I've seen in some of the largest theme parks so I'm assuming there must be a way to cover them...or am I missing something? My F/M is a stickler for documentation too! Any help??? Thanks.



    P.
    Jim Pashley
    The FEAR FACTORY
    www.thefearfactorynj.com
    855-NJ HAUNT
    sigpic
    "WE MANUFACTURE NIGHTMARES"

  • #2
    Use a fire retardant spray on them that says it is for or protects wood products, like this one
    http://www.feldfire.com/Fire-Retarda...FUpeTAodo128KA

    Latex is sap from a rubber tree, comes from a tree so therefore can be considered a wood product. The documentation then comes from the spray. That has eased the mind of my fire marshals in the past. I hope that helped,
    Allen H
    www.Stiltbeaststudios.com
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Stiltbea...s?feature=mhee

    Comment


    • #3
      Sap!

      Allen,
      Thanks for that tip (another thing I did not know) sap...hmmm, I'll try running that by him & see what he thinks. I was just told (& the fire retardant spray manufacturers) claim that if you spray water on a item & it doesn't absorb than the spray will not be effective? You would think that 99% of all prop vendors are using latex in their products they would have by now incorporated a retardant into the latex. Makes sense right? Especially with the stringent fire codes today. These national theme parks are under the same guidelines & use many of the same props so somethings got to give? What about plastics (vacu-form) or rubber (tires,etc.) Has to be a way to coat it or getting around a certain percentage. Anyone?



      P.
      Jim Pashley
      The FEAR FACTORY
      www.thefearfactorynj.com
      855-NJ HAUNT
      sigpic
      "WE MANUFACTURE NIGHTMARES"

      Comment


      • #4
        There are a wide variety of fire sheild retardant products that you either mix with water and bug spray everything down or you add 8 to 12 oz of this miracle white powder to each gallon of paint. Small quanities go for $7 to $8 per gallon and buying in bulk is the way to go, you may easily spend $200 to $300 per 1000 SF covering things.

        There are industrial products and then the next level down and everyone is using the next level down. Industrial product ratings are 5 times higher and so would cost about $5,000 to spray 3,000 SF. So you need to know your parts and products so the fire marshal does't demand the industrial rating stuff.

        It is still an upsell for paint manufacturers because it does tend to settle in premixed materials and must be mixed at the time of use as an additive. It is then an upsell. Residential codes have the potential to change at some point and even require sprinkler systems in homes above 4800 SF and all homes should be 4800 SF but so far this gets held back over and over due to the extra cost.

        Everything has a melting point or a flash point when exposed to open flame. Plastics melt and give off fumes more than transmit flames, which is bad but it is already an acceptable time period because most items are petroleum based or already have mineral or fish oil pressure impregnated as a mold release. Flash points on oils require open flames of several minutes to reach flashpoint that is usually around 550 degrees. So you spray this water based or latex mixed sheild on every thing.

        No one is treating costumes as far as I know, only props and walls. There are quite a few threads on these forums to search that have the manufacturers listed like New York Fire shield and some haunt specific suppliers.
        sigpic

        Another fabulous post from the U.S.Department of Wild Imaginings, now in spectaclar stereo, sponsored by the Adhesives and Sealants Council, suggesting ways to stick things together since the 1800s. Not fabulous in a gay way. Your results may vary. Illinois residents add 8% sales tax. These posts have been made by professional post makers, do not try this type of posting on your own without extensive training, lovely assistants and a trusty clown horn.

        Comment


        • #5
          Fire Shield

          Greg,
          Trust me I've been researching this for a while now...and the answers are not that clear. If you read the Fire Shield (as well as other brands available) data/information sheets, it specifically states "if water does not absorb into the item you are trying to spray than the fire retardant spray will not work/ineffective. As far as I can see water does not absorb into latex, plastic or rubber, so where does that leave you? I understand you must buy different products for different materials (no one spray covers all materials)I understand these sprays are expensive & I have no problem protecting my patrons or investment but according to these sites these sprays would be ineffective? So my F/M is really pressing for concrete information..."this should work" ain't flyin' with this guy! HEEELP!



          P.
          Jim Pashley
          The FEAR FACTORY
          www.thefearfactorynj.com
          855-NJ HAUNT
          sigpic
          "WE MANUFACTURE NIGHTMARES"

          Comment


          • #6
            Is he using universal fire code, International fire code or just the regional code? No one has to fire retard their plastic garbage cans so I dont under stand the concerns. How much latex are you wanting to put into rooms?
            www.Stiltbeaststudios.com
            http://www.youtube.com/user/Stiltbea...s?feature=mhee

            Comment


            • #7
              Pickle, do you have an MSDS for latex? I can get you one of those, would that be sufficient? That will help determine the fire load of the structure.
              www.Stiltbeaststudios.com
              http://www.youtube.com/user/Stiltbea...s?feature=mhee

              Comment


              • #8
                Latex MSDS

                Thanks Allen,
                No I do not have any of those. I'm not really planning on a lot of latex per say...just the normal props & animatronics (Hogzilla, Cadavers, Snakes, etc.) & this guy wants the F/R on EVERYTHING! I mean I understand the building materials but some of the props? Come on, there has to be some give & take! The patrons clothes aren't fire rated? If 95% of the build out is either non-combustible or sprayed with a F/R, I would think he would bend a little. I thought I'd use the F/R additive in a latex paint & paint the props again but they're mostly all finished already...seems ridiculous to have to re-paint every prop? This kind of shit drives me nuts...wasting a better part of two entire days messing with this crap...thought someone must have run into this by now? Maybe, like everything else in Jersey, our F/M is just over the top & un-bendable!




                P.
                Jim Pashley
                The FEAR FACTORY
                www.thefearfactorynj.com
                855-NJ HAUNT
                sigpic
                "WE MANUFACTURE NIGHTMARES"

                Comment


                • #9
                  How is he tested this? Will he come and try to burn down the haunt? Some marshals do that.

                  I do think that it may be a good idea for vendors to start mixing in FR with their paint as they paint their props, would definitely be helpful!

                  I don't think we have to spray our latex props, but I'm going on a spraying spree before inspection on everything that isn't wood, like camp netting, all the fake plants, non-latex props (skulls, foam wall pieces, etc)

                  Make sure you know how your marshal will "check" to see if you did FR everything.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    F/M Bill!

                    I'm with you...the vendors/manufacturers should build that into the latex itself or the paint on the latex...it would make life sooo much easier. The F/M said he'll take doc's on everything , whether it be IFR (factory designed & installed) or if sprayed...a certification. But still hasn't resolved my problem with the latex stuff! Can't believe more peeps haven't had these problems? I'll keep digging.




                    P.
                    Jim Pashley
                    The FEAR FACTORY
                    www.thefearfactorynj.com
                    855-NJ HAUNT
                    sigpic
                    "WE MANUFACTURE NIGHTMARES"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I might make just one neat thing and put fire retardant in its paintjob just to prove its possible lol.

                      So buy NYFS and spray it on everything and give him the certificate? If you know it's safe and you did your job and he isn't gonna come flame test, consider yourself safe...?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Paint additives work in clear coats too! Instead of repaint, add an acrylic sealer with the stuff disolved in it. But despite the directions people are just hosing things down with a bug sprayer. All of these props have some kind of garment or burlap that is the more obvious thing to catch fire or be vandalized. Under no circumstances should you have tires inside the haunt. Tires with an accelerant are the number one choice by arsons. Just scratch those off the list.

                        Little tid bits like things are not going to be stored there and gasolines for chainsaws, paint seconds and thinners are stored off site or away from the main building and have nothing to do with the operation of the haunt.

                        This stuff does work. There is a large dragon outside a well known haunt that blows fire out it's mouth and the wind whips the fire back on it and it's building that is in a pond. It requires regular re dousing but never catches fire.

                        The actual product is probably something like salt that when heated blows off little amounts of itself and so there is no one source for igniting a homogenious material. Eventually this effect wears off and things do catch fire. Everything is how long do you have to go in and get people and get back out if there was an involved structure fire.

                        But, yes You are in New Jersey. We have gotten lots of things by as the standard for this county from the stance that what they are asking for just doesn't happen anywhere reguardless of which section of the book they are looking in applies to an industrial environment. Is there plastic at your local restaurants, at the movie theater, on store shelves somewhere in a 50 mile radius from your location? Yes, danger is everwhere. The fire detection systems and sprinklers and control modules are supposed to protect if something goes into unexplained spontaneous combustion.

                        If you are trying to not have all those systems, the answer is clear coat. You would be better to have a sales rep for the fire sheild product do his job for you. You can smear vaseline on everything and it is tough to catch fire even with a torch and everyone that tries to grap it gets slimed and the prop stays there. There are more solutions than buying things off of shelves with only the limited instructions on the can. You have to be kinda smart and let smart people used to dealing with your area involved.

                        I first learned about what was possible to buy at the independent paint store and then discovered the fire shield in quantities is cheaper. So maybe you have to buy what has a sales force willing to deal with your area copy all the literature that has a guarentee and tested New Jersey specific certificate.

                        What is usually comes down to is limiting occupancy to the building no matter how big the place is. Suggesting there is going to be 4,000 people in there in a conga line is not what they want to hear. They want to hear at any given time no more than 50 actors and customers will need to evacuate in so many minutes per so many square foot.

                        You can't expect the fire marshal to sign off on things he really isn't an engineer to approve. So you get the product sales force and technical dudes to be your pro authority on the subject and there is nothing better than that. It isn't you talking to who knows who on the internet and they said this or that. We are not professional engineers or if we are are not licenced in the state of New Jersey. A professional engineer can be a technical witness on court and this is the standings they are looking for in the states that are more regulation prone.

                        I'm guessing that is why 12 ounces of salt costs $8.

                        We have heard of a lot of people that are stand up guys in their communities that never opened because they approached it all the wrong way. It is a negotiation, not a quick fix, it is the fire marshal understanding that you understand more than anything. Or the answer is you aren't opening in that county sorry. Or you don't put those stupid expensive unapproved props in there at all and just have set design and actors. Until you figure out what gel to smear on them, they might as well be a stack of tires stored in an unapproved setting. And probably the only stuff approved for New Jersey is made in New Jersey.

                        Some of the shows that move around the country are pretty lame and have no props at all in them just for this reason, not because they intentionally wanted to suck. So you move up with metal props, concrete props and lots of actors.

                        God I love all the shit that just buying stuff creates.
                        Last edited by Greg Chrise; 07-18-2012, 09:49 PM.
                        sigpic

                        Another fabulous post from the U.S.Department of Wild Imaginings, now in spectaclar stereo, sponsored by the Adhesives and Sealants Council, suggesting ways to stick things together since the 1800s. Not fabulous in a gay way. Your results may vary. Illinois residents add 8% sales tax. These posts have been made by professional post makers, do not try this type of posting on your own without extensive training, lovely assistants and a trusty clown horn.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In a large Vegas hotel I had to put a fire extinguisher within a foot of my giants. I sprayed everything with fire retardant and the items I painted I mixed it in. I left the jugs and empty bottles all over the place and the Fire Marshall said "nice" > I used to use fire retardant foam when I built props but found it an unnecessary expense. I would only personally ad retardant to latex or use fire retardant foam on request and obviously for a small fee. I have been on the build side for a few years and it has never been requested.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            As for latex (non costume masks) I have always used the all purpose spray on fire retardant and never had a problem. as for costumes I have never heard of anyone doing it but I can imagine it being a major skin irritant !!! I always said the most flammable thing in a haunt is the customer maybe we should hose them !!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Heres Just a random thought

                              Random thought here ~

                              What about this.. its a bit of work .. for latex props that are pre painted.. (which would obviously include all props, animatronics, etc)

                              Rough up the surface ... and break the "latex barrier" of the prop. Without destroying the integrity of the item. Either with sand paper or a Dremel tool.

                              Then spray the item with fire proofing.... Would that not work ???? Would the FR not get deep enough ??

                              Obviously .. adding a FR to the paint or latex would be the best option and less labor intensive.. but just a thought.

                              ~LoneWolf

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