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  • #16
    "So who are your real heros and what is their story? Their real story. It is tough in this day and age to find someone that does anything really. I want to know people that are the full deal. Make the things, sell the tickets, design the next thing. Dreaming about how business works doesn't really apply. Who says you need an attorney. Of course an attorney does. Who says you need an accountant and can't do it yourself. Of course an accountant. Who says you need a business degree? A business school. And so on. Over time you can do anything yourself and that is the big secret. Don't be baffled by bullshit and all the bewildering choices of all the things you are "supposed to do". Really? Who says and Why? If they aren't making you money you don't have to do it. It is something everyone else has been told and use as an excuse of why they can't do something. Oh shit I have no business plan. Oh shit I need a mentor and I need it right the fuck now! Yeah right."
    This is from Greg's posts, read this if you dont read all of it.
    www.Stiltbeaststudios.com
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Stiltbea...s?feature=mhee

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    • #17
      Greg, I agree with so much of what you said. And I actually read every single word, (thanks for believing in me Allen! lol ) Also, Greg please never post again, create a new account, you're currently at 2,525 for posts and that's really cool TWENTYFIVETWENTYFIVE! Seriously though, I understand what you're conveying, the whole reason I posted in the first place was because of my family, my parents mainly, who don't have an ounce of faith in me succeeding in anything other than being a doctor, (not gonna happen? And I am apparently the anti-Christ for thinking I can do anything without being a doctor. So out of determination to prove that there are other successful and enjoyable professions out there, I made this post. (I'm 20 btw lol)

      I appreciate your input too Allen, unfortunately I can't travel too far right now while I'm still in school, but in the meantime I am working on haunt stuff lit ally every minute I'm not in class, (hell I'm in Chemistry lecture right now!). I love your videos Allen, they've been a load of help for me for a LONG time. I also like using the "search bar" on here and go through a TON of old posts from years and years ago when this forums site was really booming.

      I really do appreciate everything you guys are saying, and I enjoy reading your posts, (Greg you solidified my life choice of never owning a bike shop), and reading into what you're trying to say through those posts, (if someone's not making me money, why take them seriously, especially if it involves them having a gain while I suffer a loss? And why not just learn how to do things yourself and make something of yourself, without a wall full of degrees making themselves really expensive wallpaper!) I am definitely lucky to have mentors like you guys.

      To be totally honest, some of my biggest heroes/people I consider an inspiration are people primarily from this forum, and in no specific order, obviously Allen and Greg, but also Ben Armstrong, Scotty, StGermain (a guy who owned a haunt in Mass but doesn't post on he often if at all, but I know him in real life thanks to this forum), Wayne, Larry, Kimmy, Heather, Shane, Eric, plus many others I can't pull off of the top of my head while listening to this old hag talk about general variation of electron affinity (as an exoteric quantity) withing the periodic table. She's not making replying to this very easy, lol.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by screamforadream View Post
        Scotty, I really appreciate your input!
        He is quite amazing, isn't he?

        Originally posted by screamforadream View Post
        I want to know and ask because...well, anyone can be successful, but there's so many different levels of success that my definition of success can be COMPLETELY different than someone elses.
        Well, based on everything I've seen and learned, I've come to one particular conclusion: the haunt business is the one business that you can't afford to treat like a business, else your business will most likely fail. Principally because the opportunities for wantrepreneurial pitfalls are so great. Even without intending to, you can find yourself eaten by the alligator as you were distracted by other things.

        (Then, how should you "treat it"? Stay tuned.)

        What's more, I've never seen a single business in my life that, to be successful at it, you didn't need to master the craft before you can master the business, even the craft of effectively running any business, separate from the particulars of that specific business itself. (Iow, regardless of business, I'm sure someone like Scott would be successful at it once he learned those particular ropes.)

        Haunting is one of those businesses that everyone thinks is so simple to run, especially someone who is something of a home haunter, and thinks that pro-haunting is simply nothing more than home-haunting, only with a bigger budget, bigger space, and a bigger shopping list (along with a few forms to fill out), when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. True, many of the creative processes are the same as far as theming, prop-making, and so on, and I've seen some home haunts that, creatively, give pro-haunters a run for their money.

        While there may be a germ of truth in that, these would-be pro-haunters are looking at those metrics in geometrical terms, vs. exponential. Iow, if their home-haunt space is 200 sq ft. and their pro-haunt space is 4000 sq. ft., then they'll simple need 20 times the stuff they already have. That may seem like a reasonable assumption, and probably is if you are trying to figure out how much plywood and paint to order, but the logistical realities are far, far greater, and, particularly, the geometric vs. exponential quandary can play specific havoc on, among many other things, your available time, and how effectively you can get all this done on your own in a year.

        Instead of you just throwing up a few wall panels in your garage or backyard and having your kids and a few of their friends act in it for a night or two, you actually have to find a location (a deal breaker for most); secure the location free and clear (lest being told to vacate the week before you open); either do some heavy modification to the location or creating a wall system that is totally free standing (enter: the building inspector and architecturally approved floor plans); run power and do lighting that you just can't plug into a wall (enter: the electrical engineer); run sound that's somewhat more involved than having one or two boomboxes sitting in a corner somewhere; making sure everything is safe and flame-retardant (enter: the fire marshal); having to hire a proper cast and crew (plus security and office staff); and making the FM, the BI, and the local board happy (lest being told you're "shut down" the week before you open) . . . vs. just having a few friends and family chip in for a night or two out of the year in your garage.

        True, in that last bit, friends and family will go a long way towards helping you in the first few years, and your brother-in-law might very well be your security staff and your wife or girlfriend might very well be your office staff, but if you plan to go big, and have a sustainable business plan, you can't depend on having a few friends helping you out a few nights a year. You need to know you can have a sustainable business model that will grow and develop, with staff that is available for the whole season, regardless of whether family members can chip in or not.

        And all of these necessities are sitting there, on the table, waiting for you to act on them, without having even thought about filling out one business form or bank loan form.

        Iow, the business side of things is so vast, you simply can't play the wantrepreneurial game of getting an LLC, a cool logo, a $1000 website ("and those are 'friend prices'!"), a box of business cards with your name on it listed as CEO, writing a 40 page business plan (filled with such amusing fictions as, "we fully expect to have 20,000 patrons our first season, although we really don't plan to effectively promote our haunt" or "we have no contingency for paying back the loan if it happens to rain on one of 6 key money nights of the year" and so on), and hitting up every bank manager in town for that coveted $150,000 loan that "godfatherly" haunt consultants talk about needing to have (which, as it happens, just about covers their consulting fee), all that without even having learned the business, learned the craft, or having validated your particular version of it. ("'Validated'? What's that?" More on that later.)

        Haunt wantrepreneurs will often dive head first into all of these things without learning the first thing about pro-haunting, about learning the craft, or even having worked in a pro haunted house, much less a legitimately profitable one. They tend to look at the whole "pro-haunting is really home-haunting with a bigger budget, bigger space, and bigger shopping list" idea in the most simplistic of terms, like it's some sort of dream business, like the retired couple in the banking commercial who dream of opening a bed and breakfast in a suitably rustic location without actually having any experience in entertaining, restauranteuring, or hospitality trades, or even much enjoy cooking and entertaining friends. "But, don't you hire chefs for that?"

        Haunting lends itself to what I call "IES" . . . Instant Expert Syndrome. When someone encounters what engineers call a black box ("push-button" operational simplicity on the outside; mechanical complexity on the inside), and they figure it looks simple enough to do, suddenly they think they have it all figured out, and become something of an instant "expert" on it, overnight. This, for instance, is true of a car. A car is an engineering black box. It seems simple enough. You turn the wheel, the tires turn. You step on the gas, it goes. You step on the break, it stops. You change gears, it goes faster or slower. It seems simple enough until you pop the hood. Suddenly, that simplistic thinking all changes, and people start to appreciate the true complexity of the machinery. Even adding oil can prove too much of a challenge for some people who are perfectly capable of driving to the store and back to buy said oil.

        Likewise, this can be especially true with home-haunters thinking that pro-haunting just takes a few extra steps than setting up a haunt in their garage. Rarely do they appreciate how complex things can get because they only time a lot of them get to "look under the hood" is when they actually try to launch their own pro-haunt, and realize just how complex - and pricey - it actually is. And, what's more, they are invariably doomed to failure if they do not first "validate" their business model.

        "Validate their business model"? Well, I don't have time to go into it in this post, but in simple terms, you need to validate that your idea for a werewolf themed trail of terror, for instance, is a viable concept before you blow big bucks on it. Iow, you need to find out if people are willing to drive an hour outside of town to come and pay you $5-$10 to watch you and your friends dress up as werewolves and run around in the woods for an hour. If so, you might have something. If not, don't blow big bucks to create this über haunt that costs you tens of thousands of dollars to create (taking out a loan on your home in the process), with $25 tickets, plus $3 parking, only to discover no one's going to show up. And heaven forbid it should rain on Halloween weekend, or your local team makes it into the playoffs.

        Incidentally, trick-or-treaters showing up to your home haunt isn't a legit validation, cuz they aren't there for your home haunt . . . they're there for the free candy. "Oh, but they do show up for my home haunt and not the candy! It's a neighborhood tradition! The highlight of many kid's Halloween!" Well, if you want to test that theory, move your "home haunt" 30 minutes away and see how many kids from your neighborhood show up, tradition or not.

        So, what's the treatment or the approach to this business that can work better? Simply this. My stance is that until we get to those levels of excellence and success that you listed and that most of us aspire to, don't treat haunting like a "business" (in the wantrepreneurial sense, that is), but, rather, as: a passion, bordering on obsession, that we can't afford to do, but desperately have to do regardless. Think about that. A passion, bordering on obsession, that we can't afford to do, but desperately have to do regardless. You have to be passionate about it in order to be successful at it. You almost have to be obsessed about it in some respects, and unrelenting in your pursuit of excellence in it. Imagining that you couldn't afford it short circuits all the ridiculous blather about bank loans, absurd shopping lists, and delusions of big budget extravaganzas ("we spared no expense!"), but becasue you desperately had to do it anyway regardless, you'd start coming up with innovative, cost effective, cheap (or out-and-out free) ways of doing things that don't require hoping that your shipment from a tradeshow makes it to you on time.
        • Can't afford to buy 100 zombie masks? Make your own.
        • Can't make your own? Use minimal make-up and keep your actors in the shadows.
        • Can't afford to buy 100 zombie costumes? Hit the thrift stores and start distressing.
        • Can't afford theatrical lighting? Use a few landscape spots for $6 from Lowe's, or use Allen's LED minispots.
        • Can't afford to theme a complete circus motif? Paint every other wall panel a primary circus color and throw in some LED multi-color Christmas lights bought on clearance.
        • Can't afford the paint? Leave things rustic, or get unused, recycled paint.
        • Can't afford plywood for walls? See if a construction company can dump their discards at your location, which saves them on dump fees at the local landfill.
        • Still can't get plywood? Use two discarded pallets for a wall panel. Instant Ridley Scott effect.
        • Still can't do walls? Use a nearby patch of woods and do a trail of terror.
        • Can't afford animatronics? Use puppetry were applicable.
        • Can't afford a lot of cast? Use multiple scare zones that allow a few actors a lot of scare opportunities.
        • Can't afford a proper strobe light for $40 a pop? Make one for $5.
        • Can't afford corpses? Put them in body bags.
        • Can't afford a full sound system? Use MP3 players and computer speakers.
        • Can't afford to do a full season haunt? Find a charity that needs a fundraiser and do a halloween event that can turn into a haunt.
        • Can't make a haunt happen no matter what you do? . . .


        . . . THEN HELP SOMEONE ELSE WITH THEIR HAUNT!!!!

        You won't find these sorts of solutions listed in books on how to file LLC's or how to write "business plans, and other assorted fictions". You come up with these solutions when you are obsessed with doing something haunt related, no matter what.

        This is how you learn the craft. This is how you become a pro-haunter.

        C.
        Last edited by BrotherMysterio; 11-02-2014, 01:59 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          I can't believe I read that whole post- but I did! And I usually don't!

          I agree. Well said. Absolutely true.

          Could be the prologue to the Ultimate Haunters Guide...
          How can a man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temple of his gods.

          What you put into your mind- you put into your life.


          www.zombietoxin.com

          Comment


          • #20
            REAL people

            I knew most of the extra needs a pro haunt needed prior to doing it [thats why I got the doors open and even passed the first FM visit and he LOVED my wiring and said it looked like I have been doing it for a long time LOL]. Something that I was not ready for was all the lyres. My marketer sold me a dream when it came to his marketing. The marketer owns two haunts in town and he put me on all the marketing that he did for his haunts. I thought ''if it works for him then it has got to work for me'' boy was I wrong. The marketer is real nice I just wish he would have told me he did not plan on doing everything he said and I needed to buy more marketing besides his LOL! Now I know why he owns a printing shop in the back of his haunts to help pay rent so he can sustain his location without going in the red. Even though it was tough I would not trade it for the world. To learn how to fight you actually have to fight. This last season taught me so much that I could of hired someone to consult and teach and I would of not learned half of what I learned from actually doing it. GREG hit on a real topic trust almost no one because everyone is trying to get in your pockets and they do not care if it makes you money after your check has been cashed. With you managing that haunt that you sold that is a GREAT thing. You get to learn from all the mistakes that you make without it costing you a dime since you do not own it you manage it.

            Comment


            • #21
              If you build things with some level of passion and craftmanship, people will come to you to service it.

              Like if you had a home built, people call their home builder with questions about adding on or fixing where a tree took the corner of the garage off and deal with the insurance company.

              Custom finishes, same thing, only the guy who installed it can really tell you how to maintain it or repair it.

              And so over the years I observed all the stories of haunt failings and did better than that.

              Some guy wants $2500 just for the drawing of a haunt. I can build a haunt and show it to you already built with a drawing or 5 drawings for $2500. It ran for years and the money came from the customers, it was time to redo all the fire retardant again and even with all the known expenses that were going to have to be done to maintain and upgrade it, it was a better deal than anyone else every offered.

              So if you legitimately help someone out, instead of demanding $150,000 right now in unmarked bills, who knows how much money it can earn over 20 years or more with great relationships. Then it doesn't limit to the haunt either, lots of businesses anyone get into you are offered to participate in as well. Or when one does sell you get first dibs on being the guy who will sell it. You know how to sell one, probably know who needs one right now and it's how fast can the semis get back into town. No need to run an add in a magazine for 12 years trying to sell the same haunt.

              I have seen haunts sold out of trailers at a truck yard where someone actually got $165,000 SBA loan and they sold the haunt for $10,000 just to pay storage fees not paid on the trailers. So they took the guys house and all is assets and some consultant "helped him" to that conclusion.

              I've seen a guy talk a retired guy into building a bunch of walls and buying props with his meager retirement savings, then convinced a mall to let them have a huge space and only a couple thousand people showed up, the guy drove off with the ticket money, the mall locked up the building and sold the haunt and all it's contents for $23,000 to pay for the rent. The old guy lost his money. Earlier a couple if us from all across Texas listened to this guy tell us it was going to me a million dollar location. Really? Well talking with that fake English teacher accent doesn't mean you are smarter than I am.

              Over and over another guy talks about finding a partner and somehow that partner never gets paid and everything ends up in court. Many times when it doesn't have to be some kind of fancy contract that is skewed to making sure you get paid. If you do great work it isn't a problem and you don't even need a contract.

              I have gotten into things where investors are all of a sudden told that there is some other investor that will give money for less of a return and they think the original investor should go down on their return or they will use that new guy. Nope, just wait a week. Oh that other guy backed out and so we will pay the original rate you requested. Now there are two sides to that one. The idiot by so many years in shouldn't still be seeking more and more investor money, there should have been some amount held back in profits to become independent of that situation and the second thing is the guy shouldn't have tried to hustle people that backed him every year for a decade. Eventually he didn't get any money.

              Many times on these forums I have mentioned being the bank. Just like you see some version of crime stoppers on the TV where you shouldn't give someone that walks up to your door and says they do roofing and can do yours, don't give them a deposit. SO then every legitimate contractor is also some kind of gypsy con artist that could be taking you for a ride. So you have to adopt a much higher standard. I will buy all the materials, install all this stuff and do all the things we talked about for this amount of money and if you don't like it don't pay me. Depending on how they react or the fact that the conversation has gone to that level then you can pretty much judge what you are dealing with. They either have the money or don't. And paying for everything isn't necessarily easy. Having things happen in a timely fashion can be seriously tough. Still how many people take orders based off a prototype and get a deposit versus the thing is already made, can someone sell it on consignment for me somewhere?

              And you work when others won't. We worked Thankgiving day and still everyone got somewhere for a dinner. A helper that has been with me for 4 years hit me with one of my own lines, that turkey isn't paying you $60 today. Of course it made sense because there was bad weather coming a few days later. Every day I whip out a calculator and make sure we did or didn't do enough to meet the pre estimate. I have figures in my head of what everything costs and how much every step pays and it has to match or be slightly better than that. Meanwhile so many helpers are updating their facebooks status about some band or music or sports event. Their iphone isn't paying them $60 either. You have to focus on what is paying you. It is all a big balance, something you will do makes more than expected and other things something caused a delay and cost money. If you have a string of delays you have to plan where that next big spurt of productivity is going to come from. Still not gouging any customer, just always doing exactly what you said you would do and how you were going to do it.

              Doing haunted houses has taught me lots of things. I will just all out like a crazy person tell someone exactly how to do something, how hard it is to do, how many years you have to move your hands like that to get good at it, what parts of your body you will need the chiropractor to look at after each step and then the responce is usually, well we want to pay you to do all of that. Just like you said. Some people will completely take over ownership and some want to keep you available. So you do business in a fashion that you can be as helpful as possible.

              Plus if you did what you said, the results were what were expected or better, and you did work very hard to achieve those results, that isn't the kind of person you would go without paying. It is so much easier to have made the thing and there it is. As opposed to all the extra steps of deciding and customizing that isn't necessarily going to be thought to be worth a whole lot more money. Everyone always says you should charge more or something for this or that but in the real world, it is all kind of expected behavior rather than something that is premium pay. If you can do it one way why can't you do it another similar way for the same money? All kinds of levels of being of service that no one was willing to do or even considered doing. See if you get paid and have long term income from a project when you are saying things like the contract says I don't have to do that.

              The quote for today is "just don't be retarded".
              sigpic

              Another fabulous post from the U.S.Department of Wild Imaginings, now in spectaclar stereo, sponsored by the Adhesives and Sealants Council, suggesting ways to stick things together since the 1800s. Not fabulous in a gay way. Your results may vary. Illinois residents add 8% sales tax. These posts have been made by professional post makers, do not try this type of posting on your own without extensive training, lovely assistants and a trusty clown horn.

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              • #22
                mad scientist

                Greg you are a smart man. I am thinking how you got your off set genius is by putting your hand on the stove to know that it is hot. Most people[not all] learn by other peoples mess ups or even better your own mess ups to make you the person you are today. There is know problem with failing just as you learn from what you did wrong and you get better [I am pretty sure I read one of your threads that said pretty much that]. So I give you props but all people need to swim in the water to know how cold it really is. EXPERIENCE is what makes the best and brakes everyone else. Greg I love your posts if you REALLY read them they have mad hatter knowledge that is a must.

                Comment


                • #23
                  It used to be there were only 3 to 5 channels on TV and all night long there were you can buy real estate courses for $300 and learn to buy things for no money down, then get a title one loan and pay yourself to fix up a house and then sell it for lots more than you paid for it or rent it out. One by one all of those guys proved to be a scam, went bankrupt and fled the country.

                  Haunted house guys thought they could roll into any town and in a month of TV ads have lots of customers having never been in that location before and pack up and leave with money.

                  Then the formula changed when there became 300 channels of TV and radio channels were taken over by corporations and the same 30 songs got played over and over for 10 years and now no one TV ad or radio ad is going to bring any veiwers or listeners.

                  So the Gypsy haunt theory became a total loss over years and years. Meanwhile a bunch of people focused more on developing the market in their areas and perhaps over many locations in a 100 mile radius. Until you have done the same thing for 15 or 20 years what really happens or what is good doesn't present itself.

                  Yet, pro journalists get right out of college and have never done anything in their lives and are the writers of business advice because the articles pay $150 a shot. Real journalists and writers compile and adapt the same topics over 20 years and include a history of 100 years and then whip out a book. There might have been 2 or 3 shots a year of making $150 an article as the thing was improved or different facets were tested for importance.

                  Also the regular persons experience isn't ever truely added to because no job lasts more than 5 years or 2 years or now lots of jobs they don't want anyone being around more than 90 days and want them to quit because they don't have to pay unemployment.

                  At some point I saw and you have to understand I have actually confronted some people face to face with why are they being sharks or doing things with rigged contracts, some guys that thought every season or two was a ast kill set up if they could just get a partner thought they would be the only ones that could take over places that had been around for 20 years. They thought how great it would be they could just spend a few hours on it a year and the rest of the time could be spent on their other projects. When in reality the 20 year guys are not sluffing off or have an easy ride and are a success because they spend many hours every day 300 days per year making things, repairing things and figuring out some new creative way to get the word out. It isn't you call a TV station or a radio guy and it worked like magic.

                  Now maybe an entirely new wave of what has to be done is upon everyone. Normally in hard times haunts did fine just like bars or other diversionary entertainment. Except now, people are really being taxed for every dollar at the grocery store, at the gas pump, with every utility bill and all these things you are supposed to have like cable and telephone and all these portable devices. It may have been the customers new haunted houses were sort of rag tag but fun and even the ones that put so much into detail come off a little cheezy. When every one actually had expendable income the thought might have been we know it kind of has limitations but we will go, what the hell it is only $20. But now it has come down to they are not paying $20 for something that is indeed a little sketchy. That $20 could buy a meal or 3 meals or has to.

                  Haunts got away from making things and presenting them to just finding junk or buying fancy things and trying to fit those thing into some theme that might not have fit. Randomness and just having the mind sparked by some inventory of crap doesn't work any more and I doubt this time the recession/depression is going to lift for a very long time. Haunts are reporting 30 less customers country wide with very few exceptions. Those exceptions are in smaller markets where there may not have been a haunt before and so there is a little excitement and people are curious about what a haunt is. On the other side of the scale haunts are spending lots of money and just got hit with the reality of a possible decline. It just got more complicated of how to do so much better with so much less.

                  The haunts that worked out great detail and customer entertainment only saw a 10% decline, the ones that bought lots of expensive toys you walk by saw a 30% decrease. The ones that did some changes and got ready just a month or two before opening also saw this 30% decrease. So it isn't easy anymore. Expenses are getting real for everyone. So the advice being offered really needs to be from someone that can get kind of real and has really done it.

                  Even I have a little place I go once a month and blurt out the deal of the month to people that have businesses and had haunts back in the 70's and here's the deal. Hell no! they will say. Long term experience things can be thought out in about a minute and a half tops. You can't help people that already know everything and read some book, they have to be left to go through the thing on their own if they aren't open to advice.

                  I have had people pop in and pretty much tell me they are tired of my diatribe. From what I can tell they didn't last very many years or more than one year and just didn't like what I had to say.
                  sigpic

                  Another fabulous post from the U.S.Department of Wild Imaginings, now in spectaclar stereo, sponsored by the Adhesives and Sealants Council, suggesting ways to stick things together since the 1800s. Not fabulous in a gay way. Your results may vary. Illinois residents add 8% sales tax. These posts have been made by professional post makers, do not try this type of posting on your own without extensive training, lovely assistants and a trusty clown horn.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Talk to any ONE of the giants in the industry-from Larry to Cydney Neil to Ben Armstrong to Randy Bates. If you DON'T have a business plan-a mentor-or someone who knows business-you're never going to make it in the long haul. Period.
                    Kathryn DeSautell
                    Lafitte's Landing, Dark Shadows Entertainment

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mistress DeSade View Post
                      Talk to any ONE of the giants in the industry-from Larry to Cydney Neil to Ben Armstrong to Randy Bates. If you DON'T have a business plan-a mentor-or someone who knows business-you're never going to make it in the long haul. Period.
                      That is so incredibly true. That's the thing . . . if you're new, you gotta learn the craft - business and otherwise - and that comes not only from doing but also from having powerful mentors who have the Heart of a Teacher, and want you to learn and grow (Allen being a prime example). I can't even begin to think of how incredibly grateful I am that I have known so many knowledgeable and competent people in this business, especially a bunch of classic pro-haunters, and not only that but especially how many opportunities we have here in DFW, with all the world class talent we have. I know personally that I sit on the shoulders of many giants. That's also one of the great things about HauntWorld.com and other networking opportunities . . . it gives us so many opportunities to share knowledge and learn.

                      C.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I'm just a midget that can type lots of words.

                        Over the years, all the DVDs and haunt magazine articles have all been very professional and politically correct. There is a difference in business style of whether you are managing money and cash flow and getting everyone on the same page as a business or the second style would be hands on building things that inspire others to participate.

                        In the second style of operation where you lead by example and here it is right here already built instead of concepts on a clip board, the total business plan is as follows:

                        Income
                        minus expenses
                        _____________

                        equals profit

                        If you are thinking of some large organization and big money to begin right off the bat, you might have to include sections in your business plan like asset allocation, exit strategy, refunding phase. The more complicated the array of responcibilities the more things that can and will go wrong or not happen in a timely fashion and kill your business. You can't dictate a market, you have to match an existing market. You can bend a market into being over a decade or so. How long can you hang unless you first observe the simple form business plan where you at least have income minus expenses equals break even. Sometimes just having exit strategies in the back of everyone's minds in a group is enough to not be productive enough to last a long time. What's the worst case scenario, you get paid early. Things get stacked more towards fail than go.

                        Major mind sets and opinions are based on whether it is your money invested or other people's money. Surely this kind of sets the tone for how big of an endevor you can manage. But does it fit the existing market for sure for real demonstrated on a profit and loss statement or are you selling an intangable concept.

                        No disrespect to any of the big names out there or Kathrine but not every location would even be tried if it came down to it has to work on paper first. Sometimes you just have to do it and how many show up is a real world test. In a way, all the big names had no idea what would happen in the beginning and in the early years just made it. I have talked to them and heard the real story and the real pressure of pulling off their first events. Later on they suggested to the world in educational materials that you have to have a business plan. That's a pretty sweet revelation that wasn't there in their beginnings that is somehow going to answer all the new people's problems. No one can properly come up with a business plan until the facts are in. The big names couldn't do it accutately either. That might be years down the line before you can fill in all the paragraphs and by then you don't need anyone else's money. Later a business plan discusses how to grow a business not declare you have a new product the world has never seen before.

                        There is an overall big time concern of whether there should be creditors at all in any time in the life of a business. People expecting return plus some fee or percentage or if it is better to start small and grow as the market allows. Quite simply going without percentages coming off the top or all profits going away to pay a debt is just not fun anymore. At some point being in debt makes it no fun anymore. So it is a personal choice to not go out of the box with a mega park and have something that buys lunch every day. Rather than even the lunch you just had was someone else's money that hasn't been earned yet.
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                        Another fabulous post from the U.S.Department of Wild Imaginings, now in spectaclar stereo, sponsored by the Adhesives and Sealants Council, suggesting ways to stick things together since the 1800s. Not fabulous in a gay way. Your results may vary. Illinois residents add 8% sales tax. These posts have been made by professional post makers, do not try this type of posting on your own without extensive training, lovely assistants and a trusty clown horn.

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                        • #27
                          Somehow the topic always centers around the stupidity of whether you have written your business plan and made a portfolio of your work that doesn't exist or compiled a resume or filled out some stupid assed application or stood in some stupid assed line somewhere.

                          The real story is take a look at the type of organizations and what they say as well. Some of them are under SO much stress they are sick all the time and any time you say hello to them they are about to stroke out versus some of them can passionately stand in front of a room of people non stop passionately sharing what they can build with you for 10 hours and somehow hide the fact that they even use the bathroom.

                          How do you want to live your life. Do you want to build things and share them with the world and profit or do you want to invest in a brief case and clip board and check things off trying to accomplish everything on your daily planner. In different situations both those styles have their place and their calling. I can find the ones on the edge of a stroke and not wish that on anyone. Find your heros and understand their real story. Not just what has been issued in a press release.
                          sigpic

                          Another fabulous post from the U.S.Department of Wild Imaginings, now in spectaclar stereo, sponsored by the Adhesives and Sealants Council, suggesting ways to stick things together since the 1800s. Not fabulous in a gay way. Your results may vary. Illinois residents add 8% sales tax. These posts have been made by professional post makers, do not try this type of posting on your own without extensive training, lovely assistants and a trusty clown horn.

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                          • #28
                            The economy is going to be so tight and strained for the next 10 years. How many people are making it managing other peoples money in that kind of climate? I would much rather be someone that can hands on do something and here is something I built and I will trade it for that chicken than someone that has to return a specified amount of profit to some investor by a certain date or else. The "or else" has a very high likely hood of happening.

                            Despite poor economies haunts do thrive but not in robust numbers and returns. Just like bars and sports events and everything else are reporting decreases in overall income. This is going to be the new normal. Smaller and profitable is better. Self invested is better. Or with loans that are more from angel investors where no return is expected. However usually at some point any investor goes along enough of a period of time and seeks the next investor be found and pay them out. It never stops if that is what you have begun to do from day one.

                            You can earn everything from nothing and build up. If you want to be a money manager, sure sell a business plan and show it to 200 people. For the most part everyone that is on these forums is more of the do it yourselfer. People that can do things. And people that know what kind of person to talk to, not a wild canvasing of 200 people and some car lot game of sales rejection. It all really comes down to do you wanna buy a ticket or not.
                            Last edited by Greg Chrise; 12-04-2012, 03:52 AM.
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                            Another fabulous post from the U.S.Department of Wild Imaginings, now in spectaclar stereo, sponsored by the Adhesives and Sealants Council, suggesting ways to stick things together since the 1800s. Not fabulous in a gay way. Your results may vary. Illinois residents add 8% sales tax. These posts have been made by professional post makers, do not try this type of posting on your own without extensive training, lovely assistants and a trusty clown horn.

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                            • #29
                              All too often I read people being critical of Haunters that have moved away from their early years of dumpster diving and making their own props and instead now they buy props and animation etc. That confuses me, because why would scavenging people's junk and diving in a damn dumpster be something you'd want to do once you're successful? You mean to tell me that if a haunt is successful that its still better to make some crappy looking obviously home made garbage prop than to but a big animation from the Scarefactory of Gore Galore?

                              A successful Haunter and business man can buy props and animation and make it work for his/her theme it doesn't mean just because you didn't make it it's not going to fit. I've even heard from one lady this year say "I'm not going to that haunt they use a bunch of commercially available props and decor I'd rather go to one that makes their own" like THAT'S a bad thing? Really? Really? I'm thinking that you'd rather go to a haunt that looks like a mom and pop junk pile then to see a haunt that has the coolest pieces the industry has to offer in their arsenal? I mean lets be honest, if there was a Haunter who could make his own stuff look as good as what our vendors are making what's the likelihood that this guy could be equally skilled at actually scaring people or running a good haunt? Slim to none. To be that skilled in one spectrum usually means you're weak in the other skills you'd need to not only be a good Haunter but also a good businessman.

                              I say to utilize our skilled vendors and allow yourself the freedom to focus in marketing and running the show. You're successful now, you don't need to rely on junk and the dumpster anymore that's amateur stuff!

                              DA

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Darkangel View Post
                                All too often I read people being critical of Haunters that have moved away from their early years of dumpster diving and making their own props and instead now they buy props and animation etc. That confuses me, because why would scavenging people's junk and diving in a damn dumpster be something you'd want to do once you're successful? You mean to tell me that if a haunt is successful that its still better to make some crappy looking obviously home made garbage prop than to but a big animation from the Scarefactory of Gore Galore?

                                I say to utilize our skilled vendors and allow yourself the freedom to focus in marketing and running the show. You're successful now, you don't need to rely on junk and the dumpster anymore that's amateur stuff!

                                DA
                                How did you approach your own show when you managed the transition from your own prop making to utilizing more vendor products. I'm sure a lot of people on here would definitely like some insight on that, especially Bobby, who wants to become a vendor. I've often wondered about that myself. What did you guys use last year? Mostly your own props or did you start using more vendor props?

                                C.

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