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  • Where to start?

    I have been a haunter for as long as I can remember. I have worked in the professional side for years as an actor and laborer for build outs and have been doing the home haunt thing. So I have been thinking for years now that I want to own my own professional haunt. Am I crazy for wanting to do this? Some might say so.

    So my question is where did you start? Where should I start? I'm not looking to start something this season but I want to plan and do things the right way if this takes years then so be it, I want to learn as much as I can from where ever and who ever wants to teach me. I have worked with John Burrton a.k.a One scary guy for a few years. I have learned alot from him and would have to say he was the biggest influence for me to get into this.

    So where should it start?

  • #2
    I notice you are from Philly, that's a crowed market that dominates the entire mid Atlantic region. With so many high quality haunts in the area I would think it'd be impossible to make a dent without at least a 300k budget to start. I think the best area to create a niche up there would be in the areas in the middle of Philly and Pittsburgh maybe around penn state university?

    DA

    Comment


    • #3
      I just posted this yesterday on another thread, but I thought I'd re-post it here for you:

      I know a successful haunter on these forums who had a really big home haunt, and then decided to go pro. He made a video of his awesome home haunt and took it around to various farmers in his area, to see if any of them would partner with him to do a haunted trail on their land. He ended up finding a farm to partner with, and now his pro haunt gets rave reviews, and grows every year. He never told me the exact amount of his first year budget, but he hinted at it strongly, and I definitely get the impression that it was below $10,000. Possibly under $5000. It is unlikely you're going to get any less expensive than that. The farm provided the land and insurance. He provided all the sets, props, costumes, marketing, and volunteers.

      If there's a less expensive (but still SAFE and legal) way to get started than that, I'd love to hear about it.

      Best of luck to you!
      Haunt: DARK REALMS

      Day job: Game Composer/Sound Designer

      My "geek rock" band: Legendary nOObs

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Darkangel View Post
        I notice you are from Philly, that's a crowed market that dominates the entire mid Atlantic region. With so many high quality haunts in the area I would think it'd be impossible to make a dent without at least a 300k budget to start. I think the best area to create a niche up there would be in the areas in the middle of Philly and Pittsburgh maybe around penn state university?

        DA
        There are a few in Philly I can think of 3 in Philly itself. Most people I have talked to about this are tired of them because they change things up. Im thinking of pairing up with a local civic assocation. I have spoke to them about in the past and they are still showing intrest. I also might be able to partner with someone who does have some undeveloped land he owned a hayride about 15 years ago. He would supply the land and I would do the rest. So do you think first year operating cost would be?

        Comment


        • #5
          Mike,

          Did you say 3? When I say Philly that means the entire market as people will travel an hour or more and that's still considered the philly market if they get Philly radio and tv channels.

          Here are a few off the top of my head that I've personally visited over the years....

          Bates Motel
          Pennhurst
          Fright Factory
          Haunted Mill
          Halloween Park
          Field of Screams
          Jason's Woods
          Horrorfest
          Shocktoberfest
          Valley of Fear
          Sleepy Hollow
          Eastern State Penn
          I'm sure there's more smaller ones...

          Plus you could extend it to Frightland in DE since that's close to Philly and the Jersey Haunts nearby.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Dark Tiki Studios View Post
            I just posted this yesterday on another thread, but I thought I'd re-post it here for you:

            I know a successful haunter on these forums who had a really big home haunt, and then decided to go pro. He made a video of his awesome home haunt and took it around to various farmers in his area, to see if any of them would partner with him to do a haunted trail on their land. He ended up finding a farm to partner with, and now his pro haunt gets rave reviews, and grows every year. He never told me the exact amount of his first year budget, but he hinted at it strongly, and I definitely get the impression that it was below $10,000. Possibly under $5000. It is unlikely you're going to get any less expensive than that. The farm provided the land and insurance. He provided all the sets, props, costumes, marketing, and volunteers.

            If there's a less expensive (but still SAFE and legal) way to get started than that, I'd love to hear about it.

            Best of luck to you!
            I know several of the Philly area haunters and I go to this area every Halloween a couple weekends. There is no way you could do a haunt at a high level at that price point and expect to compete with those haunts I mentioned. If you're just trying to open and exist and offer people a low budget, fun festive experience you could survive but if you're expecting to compete on any level with the likes of Terror behind the walls/Estern state or Field of Screams of Bates' haunts, you better be looking to spend a few hundred thousand at leasts. By the time you build your show, detail it, pay your staff and expenses, and marketing you're looking at close to a half a million at their level at least. I have heard that those big haunts spend over 100k-200k for advertising each year alone. That's a BIG and thriving market up there but like I said it dies out a little between the big cities. Again I don't know if you plan to come on strong like the big boys there but since you said you heard people are tired of them, it sounds like you are?

            DA

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Darkangel View Post
              I know several of the Philly area haunters and I go to this area every Halloween a couple weekends. There is no way you could do a haunt at a high level at that price point and expect to compete with those haunts I mentioned. If you're just trying to open and exist and offer people a low budget, fun festive experience you could survive but if you're expecting to compete on any level with the likes of Terror behind the walls/Estern state or Field of Screams of Bates' haunts, you better be looking to spend a few hundred thousand at leasts. By the time you build your show, detail it, pay your staff and expenses, and marketing you're looking at close to a half a million at their level at least. I have heard that those big haunts spend over 100k-200k for advertising each year alone. That's a BIG and thriving market up there but like I said it dies out a little between the big cities. Again I don't know if you plan to come on strong like the big boys there but since you said you heard people are tired of them, it sounds like you are?

              DA
              I'm not sure where this would be. I am just looking for advice on how to start and how to learn more
              I have read up on alot of diffrent subject matter about this. I would like to know where people started and where they made mistakes along the line. Maybe I can learn from others.

              Comment


              • #8
                Mike. I'll tell you my story. And I'll try to keep it simple, one liner timelined.

                Wife and I had (ex) had been together for 11 years in the 2012 season, our 'Pro' debut.
                We had always loved Halloween and she loved the fact I had always thrown Halloween parties etc.
                I built my own props, made my own yard haunt etc.
                She had inherited a home (old n rundown) and house was paid for
                We sold the house, a 67 Camaro SS, a 74 Nova drag car and took our savings.
                Paid some bills off and started our venture with $40,000 to build the haunt.
                We rented a place in town. Was our 3rd choice and one of the most expensive.
                Rent was $2,000 a month. Made a deal for $7,000 down ($1,000 a month) and rest paid after season
                Fire Marshal initially said 'ok' to the haunt in the old church building which was then a daycare.
                Then he realized it was 6,500 sq feet. Said we can't do it, he apologized and I made a new plan.
                I put 2, 996 sq ft metal buildings on the parking lot. Used the 1,500 ft house and these 2 buildings.
                Long story short, people loved the haunt, but my ex wife went crazy in about august and ran the business into the ground.
                Lied about paying certain bills etc, divorce happened, now I'm here with my tv, my truck and computer. I have a half a truck load of Haunt stuff and that's it.
                All the money, gone. All the masks I made, stuff I bought for the haunts, Thousands lost in tools and airbrush equipment.... all gone. She didn't pay rent like she said she did (took the money) and divorced. When I came back to move more stuff out, it was confiscated / foreclosed on. So I lost all of it. Trailer, tools, haunt gear, costumes, masks, mask making equip. etc.

                March, I asked her "Before we sell the house and the cars, I need to know if you are 110% happy with me, the marriage and our family" She said the most perfect answer. Now comes the reason. June 19, she was prescribed Citalopram, an Antidepressant for slight chest pains, saying it was stress. In 3 months time, she was a completely different person. Stealing, lying, drugs, cheating with the actors etc.

                Why is all that prudent? Because I lost everything Mike. That's why. After research, I learned A LOT about antidepressants and it's really an under-looked problem with personality change. So yes, I think my haunt's failing was because of the drug, which I didn't learn / make the connection until after the season.

                Now, Hindsight.

                1. Obviously should've researched the drug before allowing my wife / partner to take it.
                2. I went TOO big, too soon. I thought $40,000 would buy all I needed. Nope.
                3. I learned you need to go to other haunts for inspiration and LOOK! WORK, don't just go to play and get entertained. If you do, go twice.
                4. LOCK UP YOUR MARKETING MONEY! I had to dig into my $10,000 marketing cash I had set back to help finish.
                5. Always scale back. I should've looked at how much foam work I was wanting to do and reduced it by at least half. I spent $1,500 just on the 3 rooms with foam work.

                6. I should've thought more on "Cheap Scares" ... only by budget, not 'cheesy cheap'. Drop panels are a huge thing and cost very little. A gate latch and some wood. Maybe 2 metal strips.

                7. Never stop planning! I didn't and I think i'd fked up ROYALLY had I not! Of course, I'm a business man (entrepreneur / retail experience) and I still feel I could've done more planning. Plan, ask, question, plan and plan again. When you're done, GO OVER IT AGAIN! Always thinking of safety etc.

                I think I should've made my budget $20,000. Took half of it and set it back for some major b/s crisis like I had. Mainly thinking "if we don't get enough people I can still pay rent till next season" We lived there so it helped us mind it better. So taking off our rent etc... utilities, we only thought of the haunt rent as $1,000. 160 parking places and was a decent place.

                But yes, I should've cut the money in half. Only used ONE metal building and the house. Planned the haunt a bit better for efficiency and budget. My best recommendation is DO NOT TRY TO OUT DO YOURSELF! Don't try to keep the mindset "Go big or go home" It doesn't work that way.

                I hope this has somewhat helped. Btw, I am still planning on doing something. Making my next show mobile.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ohh. .forgot #'s.

                  By the time I was finishing construction, my ex / partner was going out partying with the actors / volunteers, staying out late etc. Blowing money... you name it. Like I said, she completely flipped in personality (even prior to all the people showing up, so it was NOT the flood of all the young people. Her change was prior) I didn't notice it in time to stop, I was busy So anyways, she failed on 80% of our marketing plan! Guerilla marketing was our plan. Stunts, etc were planned. We only did 3 of the 20 location stunts, crashed only 1 theater instead of 3. Only got flyers out to a 1/3 of the surrounding towns. She only got 1 radio ad going instead of the 3 planned, and the ONE we got was the cheaper, less listened to station. (was a new station. Great, but new)

                  And we still pulled 800 people. The bad? We only needed 2,000 to take care of EVERYTHING till next year. I lost my job during all this mess so it went from hell to extreme b/s in just a matter of months.

                  We sold lots of Tshirts too. People were loving the haunt. People still msg my facebook asking / begging for us to open another haunt this year. People loved us. I had noted 2 wet pants before the seasons end. Not many to a lot of you guys, but I MADE PPL PISS THEMSELVES!! haha. Was awesome.

                  Also, on actors. If you hire YOUNG people, be sure to do a thorough interview. You want to try and weed out the trouble ones, you have to look under their façade of behavior to see who is who. Also, make them your EMPLOYEES at first. Friendships can come later!! Haunt takes priority. Not partying and being a great host.

                  Anyways, I think that's all I got for you. Good luck with your venture.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Mindsets!!!!

                    I’m one of the least qualified to give you advice. I come in from a different perspective since my main income, helping peeps setup up home based biz in network fitness as they lose weight, is very lucrative. So that said cash flow is not an issue. As I shop for buildings now in the Nashville area and decide if I want to go Mega off the bat or go small for a fun’r ride for the 2014 season I have a couple mindsets you may want to think about.
                    Partners really have sucked for me in the past. I had one were his commitment was marketing. He fulfilled his contract by getting billboards up in the last 3 days of the haunt.. total screw. So one, pick your dance partner carefully and get out of the excitement stage and think like Spock.
                    The second thing, it is just like any brick and mortar biz… lack of capital investment is a huge reason to fail. So when you do this say to yourself I am not going to be able to pull a check from this for five years. Any money I make will support this venture. If you make it sooner great… but if you don’t, Its in your plan.
                    Give yourself time to market.. shot myself in the foot by putting up a 30K ft haunt in 3 weeks…. Pat myself on the back . But as Scooby Doo would say Rut Ro… no time to market. Haunt was a success only on pee in the pants numbers.. but overall numbers not so good.
                    I think a huge huge huge factor is can you be in the same spot next year and the 4 after that. The mindset is that all money coming in is going to bills and marketing. So basically you don’t get paid for your first year customers. Only return customers…. And they need to return to the same place. It needs to become tradition! That’s the bucks.
                    Like I said earlier there are a lot of guys more qualified than me, and as always there are exceptions to the game. But at least I would get these mindsets into play.
                    Big money can only be found in marketing and innovation…. Until you have a stack of repeat customers no paycheck for yourself. Big or small!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      That's quite a story , Frightener! It is awesome that even after all that, you still haven't given up.
                      Haunt: DARK REALMS

                      Day job: Game Composer/Sound Designer

                      My "geek rock" band: Legendary nOObs

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Frightener View Post
                        Ohh. .forgot #'s.

                        By the time I was finishing construction, my ex / partner was going out partying with the actors / volunteers, staying out late etc. Blowing money... you name it. Like I said, she completely flipped in personality (even prior to all the people showing up, so it was NOT the flood of all the young people. Her change was prior) I didn't notice it in time to stop, I was busy So anyways, she failed on 80% of our marketing plan! Guerilla marketing was our plan. Stunts, etc were planned. We only did 3 of the 20 location stunts, crashed only 1 theater instead of 3. Only got flyers out to a 1/3 of the surrounding towns. She only got 1 radio ad going instead of the 3 planned, and the ONE we got was the cheaper, less listened to station. (was a new station. Great, but new)

                        And we still pulled 800 people. The bad? We only needed 2,000 to take care of EVERYTHING till next year. I lost my job during all this mess so it went from hell to extreme b/s in just a matter of months.

                        We sold lots of Tshirts too. People were loving the haunt. People still msg my facebook asking / begging for us to open another haunt this year. People loved us. I had noted 2 wet pants before the seasons end. Not many to a lot of you guys, but I MADE PPL PISS THEMSELVES!! haha. Was awesome.

                        Also, on actors. If you hire YOUNG people, be sure to do a thorough interview. You want to try and weed out the trouble ones, you have to look under their façade of behavior to see who is who. Also, make them your EMPLOYEES at first. Friendships can come later!! Haunt takes priority. Not partying and being a great host.

                        Anyways, I think that's all I got for you. Good luck with your venture.

                        Wow! sorry for all that happening. Things happen for a reason and I hope this is the beginning of great things to come. This is the stuff I'm looking for.. This will help me keep an eye on the things around me not just the haunt itself.

                        tonguesandwich I too have a great understanding of business that will help me with the that aspect of a haunt. I am in the restaurant business now and also work for a restaurant consulting company where I deal with the the operating cost of a kitchen and the cost of items. The restaurant business is one of the toughest businesses to be in. 9 out of 10 fail within the first year. Your input is useful as-well, so I thank you for it

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There are a lot of problems with the go big off the bat business theory. It ends up in failure all the time and that 10% that say they are still at it, have simply chosen it to be a lifestyle rather that that thing that is going to let them retire early.

                          There are lots of problems with 2 year or 5 year break even scenarios because in todays world of everything being fractured and lots and lots of competition, You can't just assume spending money is going to make it happen. You have to develop your clientel with lots of little experiments. To get feed back that what you are doing is crap or wildly successful or at least broke even.

                          If using the restaraunt scenario, you could have a hot dog cart and just a few events to make sure people are wild about your hot dog and fixings or it is impossible to compete with some corporate vendor strategy. Whereas it isn't simple to say that there is a sucker born every minute, now everyone can find what ever on the internet for free. As you mention some or lots of people are tired of haunted houses that exist and the new generations could compare you venue to either small live bands somewhere in an underground location or to a movie that has a 300 million dollar budget.

                          You can't just say a partner with no previous track record is going to fix that or just spending $1 or $3 per customer is going to make it happen. More like it takes 3 years of smaller stunts to get noticed, have a social network that is solid and then you can go medium or go home. If you go big and fail you have ruined your lifes access to resources. Sorry.

                          If there are partners they need years to develop the skills specific to the location. Actors evolve over several years and return but then 5 years down the line kind of get lacks because the have earned the right to just show up or something. And it all comes down to you. Pieces of a haunt I got were floating around for sale because the guy died. The guy who layed out the wonderful life of haunting in a big way died. The two guys from my business that I felt would be a great match for doing a haunt as a second business, one died on his motorcycle, and the other one in a different scenario also went into a coma from bouncing his head off the aspalt on a motorcycle. Those two I have never been able to replace in capabilities. But, I had a remodeled haunt. Then the location that we had been doing events at was lost in the landlords divorce.

                          SO my haunt became a charity event where there were lots of people that could and would do things. Except for actually telling anyone they had a haunt opened. It still made money. BUt in the mean time some younger guys with advertising backgrounds started the first pro haunt in the area. Their charity dues went on for 3 years where they basically used the charities advertising budget and the characters they created to develop a following where it was sort of understandable that they had a real segment of clientel that would come to a haunted house, people would want to be actors and people would want to set things up and make things long term even if it paid nothing.

                          After a few decades there are some zen principals.

                          Lots of people die at an early age and it seems to be from working themselves to death because there is a deadline or they have to have it now and in excess.

                          Lots of bitches seem to think they need mood altering legal drugs and go nuts and cause divorces.

                          There is an astounding number of people who can't do shit.

                          So that leaves you alone with how much can you put up with. So you start super small even if that is an entirely different angle on the haunted house experience. Have people following you for years wondering now what is he doing. In a way, I did that too, it became second nature to do something different.

                          So I'm supporting things like Frighteners mobile attractions because it may take a few years but instead of just whipping out $200,000 no one actually has or can borrow, you have earned it and know when pay day will be 4 or 5 years down the road and then you have a break even first year event.

                          A couple years of being a mobile hot dog vendor completely understanding the tastes of the locals. Like who knew, here instead of mustard and relish it is miracle whip and relish. Disgusting but if that is what they want, heres freaking miracle whip on your hot dogs. So you are the guy who isn't a cookie cutter franchise that doesn't have miracle whip or thinks relish is expensive so you get shitty little condement packets if you want that only by special request.

                          So you end up with a complete knowing of your market, not Bob is our marketing guy and he is going to pull all this amazing crap off starting the week we open this year for 50 cents a customer.

                          You can't get a loan for $200,000 since you haven't already done it and proven you can make $200,000 but you can get $3 per customer having a halloween party. Then in a city like Philidelphia, you probably will have to spend $3 per customer to do it, so you save the $3 per customer and spend their money to get them to come support the big thing. You already have several groups on social marketing, email lists and become a character of sorts and you are just cashing in on the big album tour. That is the proper other people's money scenario. Indivviduals having been inexpensively entertained funded your deal and the money went to send them a personal invitation that they already paid for and are highly likely to respond to.

                          Some haunts have taken 15 years and 20 years for this automatic fan base to develop. So the trick is to have as much haunt as the fan base deserves and actually supports. Not Just 50,000 SF or go home. Not when you can just have a scary bag of tricks that is a total of 2 SF.


                          So then in the bigger picture you still have the mobile hot dog stands not making much money but not costing money out there being your advertising media. So many companies after the fact have service branches that are a lost leader but necessary to keep finding the new customers. You don't stop the mobile activities, or go back to it as an after thought, it is part of the program. Then it doesn't matter what other haunts are doing one bit, you have qualified YOUR customer that still has life in them and is intrested and hasn't just been expected to be a good consumer.
                          sigpic

                          Another fabulous post from the U.S.Department of Wild Imaginings, now in spectaclar stereo, sponsored by the Adhesives and Sealants Council, suggesting ways to stick things together since the 1800s. Not fabulous in a gay way. Your results may vary. Illinois residents add 8% sales tax. These posts have been made by professional post makers, do not try this type of posting on your own without extensive training, lovely assistants and a trusty clown horn.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            So you have to pace yourself and do little experiments that prove yours and other people's theories. Just finding a partner doesn't work because they have no idea what works either. It is more than throwing money at it or serving that one customer that will only attend the big $20 show or nothing. You want the young people who have no idea why this big $20 spectacular is supposed to be anything or developed into this thing where they are all the same. When a haunt can be quite an intimate experience for 10,000 people per year. That doesn't happen with come tonight and save $2!!!!

                            It comes from hey, I saw that scary clown guy before on TV and the internet, it is hilaroius. Lets go check this out.

                            It is going to be kind of a tough sell having a gorey haunt when there are pictures on the news of someones legs blown off and the bones sticking out. But getting back to it could be haunted stories have held the test of time. The true wonder of the worlds other dimensions or phenomina and the young people that aren't totally sure if there are vampires or not.

                            I'll just bet the ones everyone is tired of has butcher scenes and body parts. When the world these days is supposed to be interactive entertainment somehow. What are people not doing, what condement do the customers really want. Then slowly all those customers are coming at least once over the course of many years.

                            There is no 2 year break even, there is more like 20 years later you have everything and then the market takes a nose dive or someone with different vision took the market. So be the guy that took the market. That is also a use of someone else's money. I have a competitor that wildly advertises and spends lots of money and goes bankrupt every so many years and changes his name. The potential customers call around and everyone says I'm okay and that guy isn't really doing the right things for anyone. They call a dozen places and they get the same general advice so I guess they need to talk to me. I don't want to talk to them until they have made that realization. No one is guarenteeing I will get paid for educating the customers. I don't bid on things, you either want me or you don't. If it is a competion, you don't know who I am yet so give me a call if you ever figure it out. It can be zero marketing dollars by reputation. But you have to do that for years and let the market come to you.

                            So you have zero dollars and that kind of matches how much it can cost so it is a win win way of operation.
                            sigpic

                            Another fabulous post from the U.S.Department of Wild Imaginings, now in spectaclar stereo, sponsored by the Adhesives and Sealants Council, suggesting ways to stick things together since the 1800s. Not fabulous in a gay way. Your results may vary. Illinois residents add 8% sales tax. These posts have been made by professional post makers, do not try this type of posting on your own without extensive training, lovely assistants and a trusty clown horn.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Maybe, Frightner was married to a whore, who else thinks this?

                              Comment

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