Based on an argument going on.. How many here are christians?

[mindtumor]

Somebody said that if you polled to see how many people here were Christians you would be surprised. I am just curious to see how this turns out. I will be the first to say, yes i am a christian

I am, too.

[Phoenix]

Your right this poll is to see who are Christians in the Haunt World/Indusrty. All of those who are other religions or if your a monkey swinging atheist sorry this is not about you. THIS THREAD IS ABOUT CHRISTIANS. You may want to start your own pole. This pole is like church if it dont pertain to you or you don't believe or your of some other fourm of religion thats fine just keep it out of this thread. Again its about Christians! Shane and its Our God Is A Loving God Shane This Time!

Actually you are quite wrong here, this POLL invited non Christians to take part by having a NO category, maybe the possible answers should have been 1) YES or 2) Of course yes otherwise I would not be answering this dumb poll!


Oh and Shane, the correct term is APES not monkeys, and since the Anglican Church has recently seen fit to make a public apology to Charles Darwin for 'misunderstanding the Theory of Evolution' you may want to take a look at their apology some time and realign your prejudices with contemporary theological thinking.

[kpolley]

The whole point was to say that Christians are not inherently against Halloween and that, I figured, a large number of us here were Christians. The poll set up by someone who wanted to see if what I said was true or not.

One thing that I see brewing here that I see so often is the tension that discussions about faith bring out. I'll tell you this...I think that everyone should have a relationship with God but there is no Biblical justification to support forcing belief on anyone. There is nothing about me or any other Christian that makes us "better" or anything like that. Christ died for ALL mans sins...not just some. The only difference between me and a non-Christian is that I acknowledge and accept that fact and place my faith in the God who gave up everything to walk on Earth and die for my sins. That doesn't make me better than anyone else. All people sin and fall short of God's glory.

Are there Christians out there preaching the wrong message...of course. There are those who want to condemn others or proclaim how righteous they are. There are even the nut jobs from Westboro who have somehow twisted scripture to justify shouting "God hates fags" at funerals.

You'll never get past the fact that there are bad apples in every bunch. I would encourage those who don't share my faith, however, to judge Christianity by the Book we all put our faith in and not the people on the fringe who give us all a bad name. In the end, Christianity is all about love. When Christ was asked what was the most important commandment he answered: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments". Matthew 22: 37 - 40

I guess all I'm trying to say is that the world sometimes gets a very bad impression of Christians from people who call themselves Christians but whose actions say otherwise. It's not about condemnation. It's not about judgment. It's not about anything but love. Love for God and love for others.

I hope that, at the very least, this helps to clarify where I am coming from on the matter. No judgement, no condemnation, no strong-arming...just love.

[Phoenix]

As I said I wasn't familiar with the preceding argument, so you are primarily interested in the Christian Church teachings and Halloween, and not necessarily spirituality and Halloween.

The problem I've always seen with the Christian Church and this particular matter is mixed messages, all saints day and the tradition of the souls from purgatory roaming the earth is a tradition that can be traced back to Pope Boniface IV, who deliberately muddied the waters by trying to use these 'traditions' to subjugate the Pagan festival of the dead...yadda, yadda, yadda..... now the prevailing contemporary Christian opinion appears to be that Halloween is a bad thing.

[Spookyfinder]

We're all Christians in my family but we're not radical about it. We don't even go to church regularly (don't shoot me now). We have Christian beliefs but we are very open to everyone else believing whatever they choose and we definitely don't believe that you have to worship in church in order to be "saved." We're just normal people, who are fine with just about any choices people make as long as they are not hurting others in the process.

And we certainly think that those radicals who are against celebrating Halloween have gone way overboard. We do realize that there was a short time that we were fearful about razorblades and needles being put into candy, but those days are long gone, and I, for one, haven't heard of any Columbine-type shootings related to Halloween.

[graystone]

I guess

The right thing for me to do is to say I Am Sorry if I offended anyone here. My emotions get the best of me most of the time. And as a believer in God and his powers I ask that you forgive me. I will not judge you I will let my God take that up between you and him. Shane and its I am truly sorry Shane this time.

[Spookyfinder]

Shane, All I can say is...

Wow! I'm impressed. Good job, buddy!

[TheRupert]

Proud to say I'm a Christian.

[Haunting Copy]

if your a monkey swinging atheist sorry this is not about you

Shane,

I accept your apology, if it is sincerely intended for "monkey swinging atheist[s]," - the group to which I belong.

Sarah

[Haunting Copy]

Now I think I get what Sarah meant. I think you just made her point. No offense intended, but if you're a Christian, shouldn't you welcome all with open arms? The poll has to be about both Christians and non-Christians or else it wouldn't ask which you are. You may remove that foot from your mouth now. LOL

Thanks, FearSeeker.


I feel I should clarify further, however.

In kpolley's posts, he refers to his joy in his god. That's all fine. Then he goes on to tell us that his god is taking care of all of us (i.e., the only *real* god), regardless of whether we believe in his god or not.

Well, it's okay to *think* that, but it is *not* okay to say it.

To make it easier to understand my point, let's say you're at a party, with the majority of the people being American, and a small number of people being of other nationalities.

Some drunk American starts bragging that his country is the best and that all people of the world would be better off being American, because, of course, he *knows* he's correct.

He goes on to say that those of a different nationality who believe otherwise, well, that is simply their folly.

The minorities take great insult and make their indignance known.

The drunk American then apologizes, saying he never meant anything by it.

But it's too late. The group of foreigners knows *exactly* what he meant, and no amount of justification, backtracking, or smooth talking will convince them otherwise.

It's just dandy to be happy with one's own beliefs. But other people hold just as strongly in *their* beliefs, and it's just plain rude to behave arrogantly.

Sarah

[Spookyfinder]

Thanks, Sarah.

I truly do understand now.

And I honestly am one of those people who is perfectly fine with everyone's beliefs and I don't believe in trying to force my beliefs on anyone. In fact, as soon as my father died in the hospital after a long horrific battle with cancer, my family was very offended by some of the fanatics that suddenly appeared literally within seconds of his death trying to "convert" us all (without knowing a thing about us), telling us what we needed to do so that we could go to heaven upon our deaths. It was disgusting as far as we were concerned because the entire family, doctors, and nurses were all sobbing hysterically at that moment because it was an excruciating death and he had been there for so long that everyone involved had all become so close to him. We forced them to leave.

Similarly, I am totally open to others' beliefs on non-religious matters. And it makes me sad when the government tries to stifle peoples' rights, whether it be women's rights or racial equality rights or rights related to sexual orientation. I think everyone should have a right to decide what is best for them.

And what's even sadder is that people reading this will now draw conclusions about me based on that statement. But they will be wrong. I happen to be a heterosexual Anglo-American Methodist who is open-minded. I have lots of friends who are not like me, and I enjoy their company tremendously and think they should have the same rights as the rest of the population in the US.

The difference is that I don't try to force my beliefs on others. I'm sharing them now, but I'm not trying to convince anybody that my beliefs are better than theirs. I'm just stating what they are.

And I was letting Shane know earlier that I thought it took a lot for him to step up and apologize, and I appreciated that.

So if anyone thinks less of me because I expressed my views, I guess they weren't really friends to begin with.

[Phoenix]

To make it easier to understand my point, let's say you're at a party, with the majority of the people being American, and a small number of people being of other nationalities.

Some drunk American starts bragging that his country is the best and that all people of the world would be better off being American, because, of course, he *knows* he's correct.

Being British working for an American company..... I think I was at that party, the guy in question was our boss and he wasn't drunk, he's actually always like that were you the one I saw leaving the room out of embarrassment?

Id too would like to thank Shane for his apology accepting people different beliefs and values is an increasingly important quality in the modern world where there is currently so much death and turmoil over intolerance.

[kpolley]

Sarah,

I'm confused. You sit and say that you believe God is fake. I say otherwise and you tell me that I have the right to THINK that but not SAY it. It has nothing to do with being drunk at a party and spouting off at the mouth. You may not agree with me and that's your decision to make. God gave us all free will to choose to follow Him or not.

My real question to you is why would you take offense to me saying God cares for all people? Is there something about the notion of God that upsets you? I'm really curious. I'm not trying to be snide. I believe in a God whol loved all people, even those who deny him, so much that he gave up everything to suffer and die for us. Why do you think I have a right to believe that but not say it? Why do you think that you can say God doen't exist? Isn't it the same thing?

You have every right to not believe what I do. There are plenty of people that don't. I don't subscribe to a message of hate or oppression or anything else...only love. Christ is the perfect example of love and that is what I aim to emulate. How do you find a message of unconditional love for all people upsetting?

Maybe if we had a calm dialogue here we might better understand each other's position. If not, that's fine. I just want to be clear on my position and my faith. I don't look at you or anyone else as an enemy and I don't speak from a place of arrogance. I simply say what I know in my heart to be true. I have experienced God in so many ways and at so many times that I can't possibly stay quiet about Him. It's not strong-arming and it's not judgemental ro anything like that. It is simply me speaking from the heart. I hope you understand that.

[Haunting Copy]

Sarah,

I'm confused. You sit and say that you believe God is fake. I say otherwise and you tell me that I have the right to THINK that but not SAY it. It has nothing to do with being drunk at a party and spouting off at the mouth. You may not agree with me and that's your decision to make. God gave us all free will to choose to follow Him or not.

My real question to you is why would you take offense to me saying God cares for all people? Is there something about the notion of God that upsets you? I'm really curious. I'm not trying to be snide. I believe in a God whol loved all people, even those who deny him, so much that he gave up everything to suffer and die for us. Why do you think I have a right to believe that but not say it? Why do you think that you can say God doen't exist? Isn't it the same thing?

You have every right to not believe what I do. There are plenty of people that don't. I don't subscribe to a message of hate or oppression or anything else...only love. Christ is the perfect example of love and that is what I aim to emulate. How do you find a message of unconditional love for all people upsetting?

Maybe if we had a calm dialogue here we might better understand each other's position. If not, that's fine. I just want to be clear on my position and my faith. I don't look at you or anyone else as an enemy and I don't speak from a place of arrogance. I simply say what I know in my heart to be true. I have experienced God in so many ways and at so many times that I can't possibly stay quiet about Him. It's not strong-arming and it's not judgemental ro anything like that. It is simply me speaking from the heart. I hope you understand that.

Kip, I appreciate your willingness to talk this over.

Here's the thing: I never, ever said that you should not say that your god is real. If it came across that way, I apologize.

What I'm trying to say is that there are two things that should not be done:

1) When "in a room" with people of different beliefs (who believe as strongly in their beliefs as you do yours), it is arrogant to make comments such as "Christ died for ALL mans sins...not just some. The only difference between me and a non-Christian is that I acknowledge and accept that fact and place my faith in the God who gave up everything to walk on Earth and die for my sins. That doesn't make me better than anyone else. All people sin and fall short of God's glory."

Now, if I were to believe that the Easter Bunny was my god, and I said, "The only difference between me and a non-Easter Bunny-follower, is that I acknowledge and accept the fact that the Great Bunny died for ALL man's sins, and I place my faith in the Bunny who gave up everything to walk on Earth and die for my sins. That doesn't make me better than anyone else. All people sin and fall short of the Bunny's glory," somebody would undoubtedly say, "Hey! Who says there was a magical Easter Bunny that ever existed? That's not what *I* believe!"

Do you see how I make the claim that there is a "fact" that MY bunny god died for YOUR sins?

Rather silly of me to assume that you blindly accept this as fact, just because myself and the majority of people in the room do, too.

Also, I doubt you subscribe to what is defined as "the Bunny's glory." What is that, anyway? It's an idea that is generated by following the beliefs of MY bunny god. YOUR idea of glory is probably going to look quite different.


2) In a mixed environment, it's simply in bad taste to go into how great your god is.

Honestly, Kip, I'm not trying to be silly. I just don't know how else I can make my point.

But what you're essentially saying to people is: "Even though you're too stupid to believe like I do, I'll be nice to you anyway."

And actually, you *do* have every right to talk about how your god cares for all of us, whether we believe in your god or not. Just don't expect people to stand around listening for very long.

In tolerance and respect,
Sarah

[kpolley]

Sarah,

I appreciate what you are saying. Just a couple thoughts.

The statement I made about Christ dying for all mans sins is not intended to offend anyone. The point is, the Bible tells us that Christ died for even those that don't choose him. That is ultimate love. Would you die for someone that hated you? I don't know if I could do that. If Christ only died for those that believe in Him then that would be conditional love.

On the Easter Bunny thing...I think I have a real life example of what you're talking about. I used to work with a couple Indian people. Great people, great friends. They obviously shared a different faith than I did and we all knew that. I still wished them a Merry Christmas. They would bring me traditional treats from their holiday celebrations. We both had drastically different views on faith, but it never got in our way. If saomeone says God Bless You to a non-believer it seems to me that there is no harm done. The non-believer thinks that there is no God to bless them, but they understand that the other person believes that and is only trying to wish them well. Christianity isn't a hobby or even a belief system...it is a life. God permeates my life so much that I can't help but talk about Him when I get the chance the same way you might talk about a TV show or sports team or whatever else you find yourself engrossed in. I understand what you're saying about circumstances and I hate the "uncomfortable" people who want to chase you down on the street to talk about Jesus just as much as the next guy. This thread, however, is about this very topic so it seemed as good a place as any to talk about my faith.

Finally, the idea of some people being "too stupid" to accept Christ is something that I'm glad you brought up. This is something that my firends and I have been talking at length about recently. (Now please bear with me as this might get a little thick but I'm getting to something.) Salvation is a gift from God that no person can attain. We are all sinners seperated from God by sin and we can't be anything but sinners. God offered us a way out of our lives of sin by sending His Son into the world as a perfect sacrifice to attone for the sins of man. That's why many people refer to Christians and "sinners saved by grace". I have no part in my salvation other than accepting it. I am not better, smarter, or anything else. I am simply a sinner saved by grace. Do I believe that there is one God in Heaven and that he is the only way to salvaton...yes. I would never say that someone who doesn't believe that is stupid. I didn't really believe that for a very long time. In the end, you really think that Christians are "too stupid" to see that no God exists. The difference is that you don't really have a stake in showing me the wonders of aetheism. Christians, on the other hand, believe what the Bible says and therefor want to show others the joy that they have found in Jesus. Nobody has to believe what we say or even listen, but if we really believe that Christ is the Way and the Truth and the Life then wouldn't it be incredibly selfish and unloving of us not to share that with others.

Think about it like this. If I believed that there was a bomb in the White House I would do everything in my power to let everyone there know what I knew. I would tell them even if they thought I was crazy. I would have to if I really belived it. If I didn't, and the bomb went off, then everyone would look to me and say "Why didn't you say something?" We believe that a day is coming when Christ will return and take those who had accepted him into Heaven. I want as many people as possible to come with me but it's a lot more than that. There is a real Joy in Christ that can't be found anywhere else. It's a joy that comes from knowing that you are never alone and that you are truly loved and truly forgiven by a great big God that created the Heavens and the Earth but yet is concerned with tiny, insignificant, little you. It comes from knowing that things here on Earth don't matter that much in the long run. It allows me to be joyous when I have to go to a family members funeral because I know that I will see them again and that they have simply gone on ahead of me. I just want to share that joy with as many people as I can in the hope that someone might be affected by it. I don't want to try to force anyone into believing the way that I do but I do want to show others what I have found in the hope that they might seek it too.

I don't know if that makes much sense or if any of it helps to further explain my point but I'm really enjoying the dialogue with you anyway.