Would this be legal?

[tchaunt]

As anyone involved in paranormal research knows, many people can get unnatural/uneasy feelings from sources other than ghosts. One of the most common "fear producers" are electro-magnetic fields (emf's). EMF's aren't very hard to produce. So I was wondering, would it be legal to turn a que-line into a "fear cage" of sorts?
In more detail:
Can I set up machines that generate high emf's around the waiting line. Many people feel like they are being watched, think they hear things or see things, and even feel paranoid when exposed to emf's. If metal is very close to the emitter, then even a low emf (around 10) can be distributed over long distances. I could design the lines to be contained within metal fences or something to create a giant emf machine--aka, a fear cage.

I know people with pace makers couldn't be allowed in the haunt. But most people that age (the age of most pace-maker-users) don't go to haunts. Would a note on a sign (in an obvious place-possibly multiple places) saying "Electro-magnetic fields used within haunt. If using pace maker or other item that is affected by EMF's, please do not enter," be okay. Or is the use of EMF's illegal in a case like this?

~Jon-Kyle B.

[Mike Bizub]

This sounds a lot like a FEAR GENERATOR. Its made by the guys from Monster-tronics. They have sold it to haunts so I would think its legal. I would probably have some kind of warning posted. Mike

[Jim Warfield]

You Would Be Taking A BIG Risk.

Anything that is a mechaincal/electrical device that effects people's minds and senseory perceptions, and then something happens, somebody flips out, gets violent, hallicinatory,is them diagnosed as needing medication, psychiatric care....and then they find out you and your machine caused this!!??
There would be no limit to the trouble you then find yourself in.

[tchaunt]

This sounds a lot like a FEAR GENERATOR. Its made by the guys from Monster-tronics. They have sold it to haunts so I would think its legal. I would probably have some kind of warning posted. Mike

They are similar, but the fear generator uses lows sounds out of the human hearing range.

Anything that is a mechaincal/electrical device that effects people's minds and senseory perceptions, and then something happens, somebody flips out, gets violent, hallicinatory,is them diagnosed as needing medication, psychiatric care....and then they find out you and your machine caused this!!??
There would be no limit to the trouble you then find yourself in.

That is a bit far fetched (but not by much). As long as the EMF's are under 50, they are completely safe. If they get in the 100's, they would cause the same effects, but they would be more intense. Plus, nausea would be added to symptom's if the EMF's were exceptionally high. But I plan on keeping them down low (around 15-25), but scattered. The prolonged exposure to the EMF's would generate more effects.
The hallucinations are nothing major. They are just like......shadows.....that you think you see out of the corners of your eyes. I've never heard of any friend's-face-turns-into-monster-who-I-need-to-kill hallucinations from any level of EMF's.
EMF's have never put anyone on meds as far as I know.
This 'machine' wouldn't be very complex. It actually wouldn't be that much of a machine. It would just be electronics around a que-line, dispersing the EMF's (which would make them even weaker.....but still have an affect).

[monsterwax]

The notion that someone could sue you for making them scared or paranoid at a haunted house seems a little crazy, but I guess that's where the trial lawyers have taken us. They basically shut down all the Spook Show businesses that entertained millions from the 1940s through the 1960s (all the growing law suits plus the fire marshal regulations requiring light pollution in all theaters). The trial lawyers won't be happy until they've sucked the haunted houses dry as well.

Speaking of which, have any of you folks received phone calls asking if your haunt is wheel chair accessible? You say "yes", and then they hang up and never come. We get that every season, and so far, only one person in a wheel chair ever came. It used to really puzzle me, but I've since found out the lawyers pay handicapped people (illegal) finder's fees to locate businesses that don't have wheel chair access. Once they find such a place, they then go and make a big show of the fact they can't get in, and sue under the ADA. They are not supposed to receive any money, just attorney fees, but the lawyers pay them through the back door and they make out quite well. (They call them "drive by law suits". A few newspapers have written about them, even though most papers support the Personal Injury industry and their agenda.)

The moral to this story to haunters is, provide ramps everywhere and the required hallway space (I think its 42 or 48 inches width- can't remember which right now). It cost us thousands to retrofit the steel walkways and bathrooms, but at least the construction people got it instead of the lawyers!

[tchaunt]

The notion that someone could sue you for making them scared or paranoid at a haunted house seems a little crazy, but I guess that's where the trial lawyers have taken us. They basically shut down all the Spook Show businesses that entertained millions from the 1940s through the 1960s (all the growing law suits plus the fire marshal regulations requiring light pollution in all theaters). The trial lawyers won't be happy until they've sucked the haunted houses dry as well.

Speaking of which, have any of you folks received phone calls asking if your haunt is wheel chair accessible? You say "yes", and then they hang up and never come. We get that every season, and so far, only one person in a wheel chair ever came. It used to really puzzle me, but I've since found out the lawyers pay handicapped people (illegal) finder's fees to locate businesses that don't have wheel chair access. Once they find such a place, they then go and make a big show of the fact they can't get in, and sue under the ADA. They are not supposed to receive any money, just attorney fees, but the lawyers pay them through the back door and they make out quite well. (They call them "drive by law suits". A few newspapers have written about them, even though most papers support the Personal Injury industry and their agenda.)

The moral to this story to haunters is, provide ramps everywhere and the required hallway space (I think its 42 or 48 inches width- can't remember which right now). It cost us thousands to retrofit the steel walkways and bathrooms, but at least the construction people got it instead of the lawyers!

Wow. I had forgotten completely about planning to make it wheel chair accessible. I'll have to remember that when I start searching for a building to haunt in (later on in my life).

[Jim Warfield]

I believe ??

Way back in the JC haunt-days a woman sued the Minnesota Jcs for 11 million dollars...because they scared her!
I posted this on here before and someone said they never had to pay anything but gave her a free ticket for next time or something, but I don't quite recall now, there was something else strange going on about this too?
I was reading my son John's lift ticket from when he went skiing the other day and the first paragraph says wearing this ticket constitutes a contract and the conditions of this contract willprevent or restict you from suing us.
If you don't agree, then get the hell out, go home! Well, it doesn't quite use those exact words, but you know what I mean.
I also liked the part about not being able to sue them for any of their employees negligence.
Then it says all injurys must be reported before you leave. (?) and have to first submitted for arbitration in the same county they are located in.
Of course if someone gets mad enough about getting hurt there is nothing stopping them from putting on a Santa suit and coming over and.....

[swampboy]

The notion that someone could sue you for making them scared or paranoid at a haunted house seems a little crazy, but I guess that's where the trial lawyers have taken us.

There is a significant difference between scaring people using theatrics and scare tactics that are used throughout the industry and many of them for decades (the concept of the drop panel is probably almost as old as humans - probably a drop leaf back then) and a new technology. Particularly one that has had controversy associated with it and people claiming health issues resulted from exposure to it.

You are talking about using EM to purposefully cause discomfort, anxiety, fear, etc. The actual effect may vary drastically person to person and could include dizziness, nausea, headaches and more. The World Health Organization has a treatment plan for people with EM Hypersensitivity (EHS) so apparently there are people who really are sensitive to it in a bad way. The fact is there are no long term studies that can clearly rule out any long term effects. Now, there are no studies (that I know of) that prove there ARE effects either. The net result is you have experts arguing over it without a long history of studies and cases on the long term effects.

Your insurance may or may not be nullified by using something like this - I would check or at least notify them to make sure my policy would not be affected. All you need is a couple people claiming they have headaches from it - miss a few days form work because of it and you have a whole lot of stuff to deal with. You can claim all you want that it wasn't your machine, but they can claim it was, they can produce experts that would back them up and then you have to get experts to refute. Whether you win or lose or settle, you spend time, energy and money on it. Is the effect really worth it?

You would have to prohibit anyone with any medical device from being in there. I have a 14 year old neighbor with a pacemaker so don't assume they are only old people. You'd likely also have to prohibit pregnant women. Your last post mentioned hallucinations - is this real? - if your machine causes people to see things, then you are taking a huge risk.

A reasonable person is expected to stay away from a haunted house if the types of things a haunted house typically does will cause that person harm. Because EM saturation is not standard Haunted house fare, the person does not expect and may not be aware of it or its possible effects. Yes they expect to get scared but that does not mean you can do anything you want to scare them.

As you know people can sue over anything. They could sue you for having a scene that was too scary that caused them to lose sleep, miss work etc. The difference is, a arbiter will see that there is a reasonable expectation of scary scenes, loud music/sounds, graphic scenes, and strobe lighting so the person has to accept responsibility. But there is no expectation of EM exposure. Even if you have signs up, the person may not know if EM exposure affects them nor do they need to know as they are not typically exposed to EM like this. Therefore, their case is much stronger. So how litigious is your customer base and is the effect really worth the potential pitfalls? Your device may be perfectly safe but there are people who will not live near power lines, think cell phones give you brain cancer and won't use a microwave because of the radiation.

[tchaunt]

Way back in the JC haunt-days a woman sued the Minnesota Jcs for 11 million dollars...because they scared her!
I posted this on here before and someone said they never had to pay anything but gave her a free ticket for next time or something, but I don't quite recall now, there was something else strange going on about this too?
I was reading my son John's lift ticket from when he went skiing the other day and the first paragraph says wearing this ticket constitutes a contract and the conditions of this contract willprevent or restict you from suing us.
If you don't agree, then get the hell out, go home! Well, it doesn't quite use those exact words, but you know what I mean.
I also liked the part about not being able to sue them for any of their employees negligence.
Then it says all injurys must be reported before you leave. (?) and have to first submitted for arbitration in the same county they are located in.
Of course if someone gets mad enough about getting hurt there is nothing stopping them from putting on a Santa suit and coming over and.....

On Christmas Eve, some guy was mad at his ex, so he dressed up as Santa. He went to his former in-laws house, where they were having a Christmas Party. He knocked on the door and an 8-year-old answered it. He shot her through the head. He went on and killed about 9 more people. He then set the house on fire after he coated it in gasoline. The suit he was wearing burned onto him. He eventually went to his brother's house, where he committed suicide. THe man also attached a bomb to his car. He did something else too, but I can't remember.

There is a significant difference between scaring people using theatrics and scare tactics that are used throughout the industry and many of them for decades (the concept of the drop panel is probably almost as old as humans - probably a drop leaf back then) and a new technology. Particularly one that has had controversy associated with it and people claiming health issues resulted from exposure to it.

You are talking about using EM to purposefully cause discomfort, anxiety, fear, etc. The actual effect may vary drastically person to person and could include dizziness, nausea, headaches and more. The World Health Organization has a treatment plan for people with EM Hypersensitivity (EHS) so apparently there are people who really are sensitive to it in a bad way. The fact is there are no long term studies that can clearly rule out any long term effects. Now, there are no studies (that I know of) that prove there ARE effects either. The net result is you have experts arguing over it without a long history of studies and cases on the............................y safe but there are people who will not live near power lines, think cell phones give you brain cancer and won't use a microwave because of the radiation.

So basically, just don't use it if I don't want a wave of law suits.

[swampboy]

I don't know if you'll get a wave of lawsuits but just one would be distracting imo. Most people don't run to a lawyer or try to stir up trouble and you might go several years before someone tries to be a pain. If its an awesome effect that really scares people and you know it won't cause other problems then pursue it - just talk to your lawyer first to see how exposed you are.

[tchaunt]

I don't know if you'll get a wave of lawsuits but just one would be distracting imo. Most people don't run to a lawyer or try to stir up trouble and you might go several years before someone tries to be a pain. If its an awesome effect that really scares people and you know it won't cause other problems then pursue it - just talk to your lawyer first to see how exposed you are.

Do you think it would be fine for me to experiment with EMF's?
I.e.: Have someone who is sensitive to emf's sit in a room with an item emitting a level 1 emf. Then slowly crank up the level and have them record the effects/changes as the level raises by 2. Then, after they first experience nausea, restart the experiment, but with someone who wasn't sensitive.
Then, wire the que-line to not go above the nausea level found in the experiments.

[monsterwax]

Honestly, I think you should worry LESS about the real or scientific effects of EMFs, and more about the imagined effects in relation to a sue happy society. Everyone will see that sign and if just one customer starts having migraine headaches afterwards, or can no longer perform sexually, or upchucks their beer, an aggressive lawyer could convince them they've hit the jack pot. Sure it sounds absurd, but so does suing McDonalds for hundreds of thousands of dollars for serving coffee that is too hot. (I know, they eventually lost on appeal, but it still cost McDonalds a ton of time and money to fight it to that point-- and most haunters don't have a lot extra of either.)

On the other hand, we're always looking for the next new thrill, and I have to admit I find this one intriguing. Let's just put it this way: If you are willing to take an added risk on top of all the other risks you're already taking by putting on a haunt, go for it. But be aware it does expose you to a certain added risk. (Maybe that's what they mean by the fear effects of EMFs, they generate paranoia inside the haunted houses because that's where the owners who stress out about them dwell!)

[swampboy]

Do you think it would be fine for me to experiment with EMF's?
I.e.: Have someone who is sensitive to emf's sit in a room with an item emitting a level 1 emf. Then slowly crank up the level and have them record the effects/changes as the level raises by 2. Then, after they first experience nausea, restart the experiment, but with someone who wasn't sensitive.
Then, wire the que-line to not go above the nausea level found in the experiments.

No I don't think the above process would be scientifically valid you would need many subjects to verify levels - I was electrical engineering not bio-feedback so don't know how many subjects is statistically significant. If I were going to do this I would go to a local university with a good engineering school and have them study my device and prepare a report for me. I made this type of request for a materials study in another business and it was less than $4k so it wasn't really expensive all things considered. However, spending $4k just proving this effect is not going to cause someone's head to explode would only be be viable if you were then going to market the prop to other haunters which if it was safe and effective may be a possibility. I'm not sure what type of analysis or approval the fear generators guys provide the buyer when they sell one of those things to demonstrate it is safe.

[tchaunt]

@Monsterwax:
Would I be free from law suits if I put "Upon purchasing a ticket, the haunt owner, Jon-Kyle Bailey, is no longer responsible to any harm caused by visitors not following the rules. Nor is he responsible for an actor causing damage to any person(s). Consequences will occur if actor or visitor breaks any rules." on the back of the tickets? Or would the lawyers weasel around it by saying something like "Our client failed to see the script on the back of the ticket'?

XD I enjoyed the witty joke. It made my day worth while.

On another not, are you saying, if this EMF thing works out for me and I actually start selling these machines, I can actually help pioneer the haunt industry?

[tchaunt]

@Swampboy:
They probably justify the fear generators because they only use sounds that can't be heard. They probably feel that sound can't be dangerous. From the description on the website, that's really the only thing I see that seems to make this product 'safe'.
I'm not sure how easy it would be to come up with 4 k. That would be a little too much for my first or second year. I would have ot crank in some high money to have that much excess money. But I know that as soon as I get enough, I'm going to start this project.