Your take on the St Louis Transworld Show 2009

[michaeldavy]

What upsets me is that TW charges $2500 per booth and lies to your face.

When I talk to TW about next year I ask them if the shows
are going to be back together? They tell me "Oh yeah the shows will be in Chicago next year. We're talking with them (haunters) now".......... "wanna booth RIGHT NOW? I'll give ya a discount. I'll sell you a booth for $2000 (that's actually worth MAYBE $1000) and discount it $500 if you pay it down today!!!" This is obviously sarcasm.........or is it?

How can a booth be worth $2500 anyway? That's just greed. I'm no trade show expert but there must be some ratio between square footage cost for a hall and the number of attendees/ vendors minimum. even with unions.

As far as I'm concerned TW has a long way to go to earn my trust and dollars back! Their booth prices need to be competitive with other haunt shows. I just can't understand why they charge what they do when it is clear that is can be done for less, successfully (the list of examples is long). The ONLY answer is greed. Certainly their "show" aspect is on par with IAPPA but It's overkill if you ask me. I would perfer less "glitz" and lower prices.

I'm probably going to try Houston and St Louis (If houston was good) and MHC next year.
Houston only because the industry buzz is positive and I need some positive buyers after TW V. Like it or not I think it's resolved that vendors to Houston, Haunters to St Louis for 2010.

I fully expect to see prices for both TWSL and Houston to go up next year!

Where is HauntCon next (this coming) year?

[Grimley]

There is a little contradiction in your statements Larry. First off you state that vendors have told you they won't sell to you. I still don't believe that but chances are they wouldn't give you wholesale which you should not be entitled to. You should have to pay full price. Secondly you said you never buy from the Halloween side because they sell batman costumes and so forth which you laugh at because haunts don't use those items. I would be willing to bet if I went through your haunts I could pick out many items that came from these vendors.

At the last and best point is that you said Halloween vendors refused to sell to you even though you just stated you don't buy from Halloween vendors and don't need those items. So if you never buy from them then how could they refuse you. Batman costume and all.

[michaeldavy]

1) Houston Halloween Retail show: Many thought sales where light, traffic was light, and people thought because the traffic didn't show up many people would be going to Vegas. The early word was Houston would dismantle Transworld, all vendors went to Houston and someone took a wait and see for Vegas. After this show looked like a BOMB everyone started booking booths in Vegas thinking 'oh yeah I guess everyone is sticking with Transworld'.

I'm interested in knowing who you spoke with regarding the "light traffic in Houston" and "going to Vegas".

Can you specify who "People " and "everyone" are?
I'm genuinely curious because then I may be able to discerne a bit about what's going on because right now it's hard to follow and decide where I should go. I can't follow who are the players in this game. Facts lend credibility as opposed to rumor.
I'm not being argumentative but I need to know who says this because I may see motivations that aren't on the surface.

Some people want to manipulate the market for their own reasons, aside from the resons I want to attend a particular show. I took TW's word on the vegas show and was burned and now I need to be a bit more discerning.
Thanks

[drfrightner]

Grim...

There was some companies that sold HIGH END RENTAL costumes those companies would not sell to me even though I told them we build attractions and bought HIGH END rental costumes.

Let me tell you something...if I went to a pizza convention, or a dentist convention, or a electronic show, or a whatever I bet you I can find something I could use something I could buy. Does that make it worth the attendance? NO!

The Halloween RETAIL SHOW is stuff for consumers, silly Halloween stuff, trick or treat costumes, that is 90 plus percent of everything that is there. Can you find SOMETHING SURE... but does it make it worth making a trip? NO!

Most of you guys refuse to go to IAAPA... dumb move but still you don't go. I've heard time and time again oh no i don't need a roller coaster. Okay whatever IAAPA is an attraction show and there is 1000 times more stuff there you can use for your attraction there than at some retail show.

Bottom line is this... you don't believe me well you are wrong! I'll tell you what how about you put up 1000.00 in a bet with me....I'll find you 20 other haunters to tell you the same thing. If I had all day to call people I'd get 100 to tell you that, no make that 200 to tell you that. You think I'm making that up?

Look man you still haven't answered the question do you own a haunt? I'm betting the answer is no... so ya I get it you'd rather see all the stuff in one place. I get it.

Now you like to sit here and ask questions and imply stuff, so simply answer my questions that I've asked you. Do you own a haunt? What haunt? What are your intentions for going to the show to look, buy, have a good time, what? I just want to know where your position is coming from.

Lastly you didn't even touch on the fact that the REALITY IS that the show you want to combine with is dead as a door knob... explain how that is going to be good for our industry. I'd like to hear that one. Also while you are at it tell us why the vendors should go to a retail show and pay double booth prices. Tell me that one.

You just slide right over the clear reasons why its better like this... I think your position is selfish you are not thinking about what is best for the majority. You don't even address how the retailers tried to get rid of us, you just want the shows together no matter how it affects the vendors, what the benefits are to the buyers, or how this industry is treated by retailers. Again that is selfish.

Look I'm done... you know what I'm saying. Who cares... its going getting put back together EVER! Help make our industies show better and lets stop crying about what was and focus on what is.

Larry

[drfrightner]

Mike,

There is a thread on this site probably on page two or three with photos from Houston and photos from Vegas. Both shows went in the dumps... call anyone who attended. Vegas was a total bust it was a disaster. Houston with all of rubies backing didn't do even 25% OF THE TRAFFIC OF THE OLD TRANSWORLD SHOWS.

NO ONE IS HAPPY in the retail world you can bet on that.

Bottom line is they had a good thing and they ruined it not just Transworld as many likes to blame but all of them they all had a hand in ruining the show.

The future doesn't look bright no matter what happens... Spirits, Halloween Express, Walmart, Target, and Party City in combination with the online costume stores have put the ma and pa's to bed, out of business. Tradeshows for Halloween retail aren't needed like it was 5 years ago, no matter what happens they are all going to get smaller and smaller and it will be down to one show.

Larry

[Grimley]

Alright I will tackle these one at a time.

First- I sat down and asked myself - In my lifetime have I ever had an instance where I had the money to buy something that someone was selling and they refused to sell it to me. I have to say in my 30 years that has never happened. But, I don't have any right to call you a liar so I will accept maybe it happened to you.

Second- You comparing a haunt convention and a dentist convention is laughable. I actually chuckled when I read it. Let me give you a better example. Lets say you go to a tattoo convention and there is a piercing convention going on upstairs. They are two completely different things. Would some people from the tattoo convention go upstairs to check out the other. Yes. The same goes with Halloween and haunt. They are so related they become one and the same. Halloween will be around long after haunts are gone. I can not say the same thing if it were the other way around. Here is an even better example. The first year we attended Transworld we went to the Halloween show not even knowing about the haunt show. This was five or six years ago. We did the Halloween show and then ventured upstairs and were blown away. Not only did we spend a full 30% of our budget there I bought a huge series of haunt DVD's. Thats right Larry I bought your entire dvd series at the once combined show. I don't remember how much it was maybe $150 bucks at the time. You got that sale because we went to the combined show. I also got a subscription to Hauntworld which we have had ever since. Had the shows been separate you and all of the other vendors we bought from would have lost out on valuable sales. Now every year we spend at lest 30-40% of our budget on haunt vendors. I won't go over specific numbers as this is not the place but we support a lot of haunt vendors.

Third- I have never claimed to be a haunt owner on this site. If you do read this regularly you would know that we are a retailer/online sales company. We go and actually BUY at the shows. I bring a camera and take pictures of the items we purchase. We bought from 7 vendors this year at the St Louis show.

Fourth- You say the show is dead and will not recombine. I hate to tell you this but they could announce tomorrow they will be back together. Money talks and if Transworld feels they will make a bigger profit next year by putting the shows back together THEY WILL. They split them up and they can just as easily put them back together.

[drfrightner]

Grim,

1) The shows are not going to re-combine. Dude if you can read, no if you can read the writing on the wall you'd already see the reality that there is only going to be one show and it won't be in Chicago. From what I'm hearing, from how its looking Houston is the new show.

2) Do you think haunt vendors should pay more to go to Chicago, higher hotels, higher booth costs, just to see almost no retail buyers? Again I ask you aren't you be selfish??? How do you justify this industry paying more to go to a show.

3) No its not laughable... if I went to a dentist show or a medical show I'll find all sorts of stuff I could put in my haunted house. I just bought a dentist chair for example...HELLO! As for a tattoo show I bet I could find some airbrush equipment, I bet I could find some talented artists to do make up at my haunted house. Keep them coming I'll find something I can take a look at no matter what kind of show you throw out there. We'll go to a weapons show and I'll find someone to sell me some used military stuff to use at SiloX... again you miss the point totally. Halloween show isn't that much different than me going to some other show that doesn't focus on AMUSEMENT ATTRACTIONS!!!!!!!!!!! As I said before there is hardly ANYTHING THERE for an attraction owner. I'm glad you clarified you do not own an attraction you run an online store... good for you so yeah I get why you'd rather make one trip. But I like 99% of other haunters do not run a retail store or have a retail store so we dont' need batman costumes you do so I'm sure you are going to HOUSTON...

If you go to Chicago you won't see even half the vendors out there now will you... do you think we should combine up with them? Should we pay $2500 per booth to be their red headed step children while they don't like us nor have a clue how to promote our show... should we do that to accomodate YOU? You tell me.

4) As for you saying one vendor said they wouldn't sell to me no it was several over the last several years and I ALSO SAID it was rampant... I didn't say I was the only one. I threw down a bet to you...I see you didn't take that bet. For every $1000.00 I bring 25 people to YOU to tell you someone refused them, or treated them like dirt, told them to go away... no no I never said I was the only one there are TONS!

Dude did you just IGNORE what I said... the retailers pushed TW to badge the haunters differnet. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY DID THAT... DUH!!! HELLO ANYONE HOME... LOL! SO they can see a haunt coming from a mile away so they could tell them flat out they do not sell to haunters.

Fact is I don't even think it was haunters who harrassed those vendors it was the enthusiasts and that like who really have NO BUSINESS even being in the show to begin with. That is Transworld problem for never really keeping the show a business to business show rather having this open door policy where almost anyone could get in.

But that is another story. Anyway no matter what you say I will never agree as in EVER. I also think MOST haunt owners agree with me. I talked to at least 200 at the show itself and said they liked it better this way without those retailers. Bottom line doesn't matter and I will tell you again they are NOT going to re-combine and the only thing I even know about is Houston wanted to know if maybe we'd hook up with them now. NOPE!

The whole retail thing is really at war with each other HAUNT OWNERS are glad to be out of the middle of it... once all the dust settles I will tell you things could change but you are looking at 2 years before the dust settles. Additionally I think retailer buyers and vendors will come to the haunt show.

Last but not least in a perfect world haunters and IAAPA would be combined, there would be no water park show, no funexpo, no IAAPA asia show, no IAAPA india show, NO iaapa europe show, no mhc, no hauntcon, no halloween retail show, blah, blah... there would be ONE BIG GIANT BUILDING that somehow could fit everyone and everyone agreed on the dates, hotels would be cheap, the entry fee free, cheap booths costs for everyone, and everyone gave each other one big group hug....

Tell me what is the chances of all that happening...since its like zero, get over the fact that there are too many shows, dreaming of them all combining and just pick the shows that best suit your needs and go to that one, two or whatever. That is what I do. Its called the cost of doing business, its called the way it is and we can do little about it but either go or don't go.

I didn't go to the retail show and never will go again. I didn't go to IAAPA asia, europe, blah, blah, blah... they cost to much to go so I'm down to hauntshow and iaapa for me nothing more is needed.

Larry

[Grimley]

Fifth- You say I am being selfish for wanting the show back together. This really kinda pisses me off. I think you are the only one being selfish here. I probably have most of the same dreams and desires you have for this industry. And by industry I mean the HAUNT/HALLOWEEN industry as they are one in the same. I think that the vendors want to make a good living doing what they love. And to do that you have to give them the best opportunity to sell. I will be the first to admit I am not a very smart guy. But you telling them to spend 50% less to see 75-80% less qualified buyers does not make much sense. How many real buyers do you think were at that show. If I had to guess I would say 300-500 maybe had buying power. Call up a few vendors you are close with and ask how many orders they took. When you say 5000 buyers what you really mean is 5000 attendees right. I looked around at the show just to watch and see how many people had order forms being filled out at the same time. Not a whole lot from what I remember. I was standing in the cold waiting to get into your haunt and we were waiting behind a group from a haunt that had 13 people with them. Only one was buying.

Sixth- I think you defend this show more because it is your baby. You have been the most vocal about needing a separate show and being treated like "second class citizens". Yes other people helped it along but it is your baby. In the same position I can't say I would not do the same thing. But you act out of blind faith rather than the voice of reason some times. The building could be burning down all around you and you would be screaming it was the best show ever. I want what you want Larry but just in a different way.

And to close- You continue to dwell in the past that Transworld and the Halloween show has always treated you as "second class citizens". That they would not support the show and tried to kick you out. Luckily they saw the error of their ways and everyone was allowed in. So now we come to this year and the shows split and you got your wish which was a haunt show. The Halloween side due to a number of factors this year that hit all at the same time stumbled bad. Now you are saying they were asking you to come back and you "stuck them the middle finger". So you are doing the exact same thing that you have hated all this time. You are treating them the same way they treated you. Get over it and move on. Think about all of the contacts and sales the vendors are going to miss out on when the buyers are not there.

I will now step off of the soap box...

[Grimley]

Larry you didn't let me finish I don't type fast enough.

[SpookywoodsFX.com]

Michael, what year Vegas show? This year or last?

You're right Larry, Transworld draws the most buyers. With less vendors now, it should continue to do so, obviously.
And you are %100 correct, I wouldn't "call a show dominated by retail associations, retail vendors, and retail buyer groups" our own. And that's what draws the most qualified buyers because it's important to them that we can call it "our own show" here on the forum. Besides, they were so... um.. In the way, anyway.
Being nothing more than "fine and dandy", who needs those "other shows"... I wonder why Transworld has always drawn in "the most buyers, the most vendors, and the most orders written". Couldn't be because of all those suit and ties walking around wasting the paper in haunt vendors receipt books. Good thing we got rid of those clowns!
Now the Transworld haunt show can be JUST like those "other shows".....

Did you just say that "there is a board of haunt vendors who more or less pushed everything in the direction and affected the outcome of how most everything was done, marketed, and more." Haunt vendors? Our own haunt vendors decided to separate the show so it would bring in less qualified buyers? To add us to the vendor list as if we were actually at the Vegas '09 show? That's BRILLIANT! I bet the buyers that went to that show were ecstatic to see the haunt pavilion void of us haunt vendors. Why didn't this "board" fight to lower the booth price? Transworld marketed to hell and back, just tweak it a bit to accommodate the haunters. And now that very same board is working with Transworld to "fix the show"? Great news!
Wait.... Did you say "FIX" the show?

Why would you put "10 to 1 on it that you'll see two or three times more retail vendors at the show next year" - "and guess what THEY WILL YOU'LL SEE"? I'm MORE confused now than ever...... Wasn't the plan to SPLIT the retail side from the haunt side? That's what the "board" pushed for.
Never mind.. I get it now.... (?)
Hey, wouldn't you have learned the first few times (or the first few years) that the retailers weren't going to sell to you? Why keep going back and asking? Let it go.
But that's beside the point.

You can find Grimley 200 haunters that don't like the retailers, great. They don't like us, great. Gang war in the alley after the show (costumes required for entry, and please bring your ID badge for re-entry). Who cares? Can you find him 200 haunt vendors that are happier with split?

"Fact is I don't even think it was haunters who harassed those vendors it was the enthusiasts and that like who really have NO BUSINESS even being in the show to begin with. That is Transworld problem for never really keeping the show a business to business show rather having this open door policy where almost anyone could get in."
I trust that the "board" is working on this at this time? I met some "enthusiasts" at the St. Louis show.... Allot of them. Troublesome lot, aren't they?? They must have made up around half of the attendance in St. Louis, no?

I guess I'm just trying to pinpoint why, exactly, this split is better, now, for the haunt vendors.... Just say it.
And who is on this "board of haunt vendors", that you mentioned, that pushed the show in this direction?


Obviously, none of this matters. If you say the shows will never be combined again, then so it be. We'll have to see how it goes, as we have no say so in the matter.

Oh, sorry to JUST quote you, Larry, but everyone else that posted seemed geared more toward a combined show.....

[drfrightner]

We have almost 5,000 members on this forum, almost all of them use names that are some haunted thing... you never know who is saying what and who represents whom, or where they are coming from. I think almost ALL home haunters, yard haunters, enthusiasts, actors, and whoever else of the like would like to see the shows together.

But the show isn't for them the show is for people who need to do business to get from one years show to the next. I think MHC and Hauntcon and Ironstock and EHC and all the rest suit the needs of those people a lot better for many reasons. Take Ghost Ride for example he went to Hauntcon and he brought cheaper stuff and he did great. Personally I think a show should be started yes another one JUST FOR HOME HAUNTERS and ENTHUSIASTS!

Fact is there are more home haunters probably 50 to 1 over professional attractions but most of them are do it yourself type of people, but they still need stuff and I bet a show just for this area would do gangbusters.

Anyway off the subject... back on for a sec, a home haunter is someone who loves Halloween and sure you bet they want to see everyone at one time. That is why you have to ask what the persons does in the industry. If you polled haunt owners you'd get a totally different outcome than polling home haunters for example. If you polled some retail show you'd get a different answer than blah, blah, blah.

As for your other comments about 'FIX THE SHOW' there is a board yes and they are trying to help TW make the show better, fix anything that didn't go right,learn from past mistakes, help them find new buyers, new vendors, offer idea's for education or whatever. Things like show times, dates, to prices for things are discussed and HAUNT vendors actally are the ones who have the most seats and they are looking at for the haunt vendor industry.

As it should be... we never had that when it was a RETAIL show...NEVER!

Lets face facts people... in the past our industry has blasted retailers, we have blasted Transworld, we have blasted the whole thing for years... well before you didn't have any say over anything now its a HAUNT SHOW so well you have ALL THE SAY! That works better for my business as it does for all haunt vendors and buyers.

Larry

[Darkangel]

Dude did you just IGNORE what I said... the retailers pushed TW to badge the haunters differnet. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY DID THAT... DUH!!! HELLO ANYONE HOME... LOL! SO they can see a haunt coming from a mile away so they could tell them flat out they do not sell to haunters.

Doesn't IAAPA do the same thing? Different color badges for guest, exibitor, buyer, member...I would think that is standard procedure....?

Darkangel (James)

[GoryCorey]

Ohhh and TODD????
I am with you on that XXX SHOW !!!!!

Costumes will be alot easier for that crowd!!!!

They had that in April in Vegas - the International Lingerie & Accessories Show

[Kelly Anderson]

Larry,

As Ive been reading the responces to my innitial question about the two shows being held together, I didnt think I would ever agree with your opinions, but you do have some very valid points. Esspecially when it comes to the retailers not wanting to sell to the haunters........They want to sell large volumes of products vs one or two to "some haunt". I can see why you would say that you dont need some retailer selling $20 batman costumes when the majority of the BIG haunts are buying these expensive and illaberate costumes anyway.

My business at the haunt show is in representaion of the haunt I participate in as well as ordering products that I sell retail. Granted, theres probably more people attending the haunt show that just does their haunt and not buying products to resell. And so given that, its much more cost effective for me to spend my money attending one show, vs two or three.

HOWEVER, even if I was only attending the show as a haunter, theres cirtain things I'm coming to those shows to see, and maybe buy. And like every other business out there, haunt or retail, they work off a budget. I may not be able or just dont want to spend thousands of dollars on costumes cause that money needs to go to props this year.........or whatever. So having a variety of products in different price ranges is very beneficial to my needs and Im sure many others as well.

The problem now is having vendors at the show(s) that will sell to eachother. If its going to end up that there is just one show, the "haunt Show", what do you know of thats being done to encourage vendors in retail to attend the haunt show? If anything.

Finally, as I said earlier in this thread, I firmly believe that to have this big and great haunt show that so many want, there obviously needs to be people there ready to spend their money, but you also need the vendors. I understand that you guys with the big for profit haunts dont need some or all of the retailers. But as far as the overall success of the show is concerned, "Dont have all your eggs in the same basket". There needs to something for everybody, regaurdless of how big or small there budget is.

Kelly Anderson
HauntYourHouse.NET

[graystone]

Guys, Guys, Guys

As much as I want them together it is what it is and I don't think it will change. So we have got to see somehow, someway that some of the retailers we want make it to the Haunt Show. Were in this boat now and we got to make the best of it and do all we can to encourage the ones we want to attend! Shane and its I am just shooting it like it is! Shane this time